EFTA00064266.pdf

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Today is September 23, 2021. The time 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the 3 the record, and spell your last name? To 4 interview. My name is . I'm a 4 start, a.ain I am DO] OIG Special Agent, S Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 5 6 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 6 MR. Senior Special Agent 7 York Field Office, and these are my 7 . . 8 credentials. 8 : I'm correctional lieutenant, 9 : I see. 9 . . 10 MR. : This interview with the 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 lieutenant, . Did I say that 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 13 right? 13 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 14 : Yes. 14 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 16 : Yes. 17 of the Inspector General, DO] investigation. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 Today's date is September 23rd, 2021. The time 18 MR. Thank you. 19 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New 20 III-226/2. The form states, United States 21 York City. Also present is DO] Senior Special 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 Agent. 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 23 MR. . And 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 these areliiiiiedentials. Thank you. 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 MR. : This interview will be 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00064266  6 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 1 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 2 *00:03:03 Thank you. 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 3 : 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 4 MR. , do you 5 performance failure, and security failure. 5 understand form? 6 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 6 : Yes. Yes, sir. 7 you do not have to answer questions. No 7 MR. : And you are signing the form 8 disciplinary action will be taken against you 8 also. 9 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 9 Mm-hmm. 10 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 10 MR. Thank you. 11 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 11 That's it. Do my name? 12 disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver 12 MR. I'll fill out the -- 13 states, "I understand the Warnings and 13 Okay. 14 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 14 MR. -- that part. 15 make a statement and answer questions. No 15 No problem. 16 promises or threats have been made to me, and 16 MR. Okay. 17 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 17 MR. : Thank you. 18 used against me." Please read the form, and if 18 Thank you. 19 you understand -- 19 MR. : I can fill it out 20 : Okay. 20 anyways. 21 MR. -- can you please sign where 21 MR. : This is Agent . I'm 22 it says em to ee name, signature? 22 signing on the signature of the Office of 23 MR. : Need a pen? 23 Inspector General. 24 : Thank you. 24 MR. : Thank you. And I am 25 MR. : Move that out of the way. 25 going to sign as the witness and put my name. 7 8 1 Thanks. 1 MR. : Thank you. And what is your 2 MR. : Before starting the 2 current cell hone number? 3 interview I would like to place you under 3 4 oath. , can you please raise 4 MR. : What is your highest level of 5 your right hand? 5 education? 6 : Sure. 6 College. Bachelors. 7 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 7 MR Which colle e? 8 truth and nothing but the truth during this 8 The 9 interview? 9 MR And what was your -? That's 10 Yes. Yes, sir. 10 in New York? 11 Milli Thank you. Please let me 11 : It's upstate 12 know if you do not understand any questions, 12 New York. Yes. 13 and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for 13 MR. : And what was your major in? 14 you. 14 : I was in psychology, though I 15 : Okay. 15 believe is liberal arts. 16 MR. : What is your current home 16 MR. : What did you do prior to 17 address? 17 workirifS BOP? 18 18 : I worked for the New York 19 19 City Police Department as a school safety 20 MR. : Thank you. What is your date 20 agent. 21 of birth? 21 MR. : And when did you start 22 22 working for the BOP? 23 MR. : What Is your social security 23 : When did I start? 24 number? 24 MR. : Start. 25 25 : May 18, 2003. EFTA00064267  9 10 1 MR. When did you graduate 1 MR...kay. 2 college? 2 MR. : Okay. And when did you 3 May of 2012. 3 come to MCC? 4 MR. : Okay. 4 : I came to MCC January 31st, 5 MR. : Thank you. Do you have any 5 2011. 6 military service? 6 MR. And have you been here 7 : No, sir. 7 since? 8 MR. : And you said in 2003, you 8 Yes. 9 started with the BOP? 9 MR. Okay. And have you been 10 : Yes. 10 in the SIS Shoa since then? 11 MR. : And when did you -? What was 11 No. 12 the -? When did you first start? 12 MR. Okay. 13 : MDC Brooklyn. 13 I went into the SIS Shop in 14 MR. : MDC Brooklyn? 14 2016. 15 : Yes. 15 MR. 2016? 16 MR. : And you started as a C.O.? 16 Yes. 17 : Yes. 17 MR. And then, in 2019, were 18 MR. : Okay. When did you graduate 18 you a lieutenant with the SIS Office? 19 from BOP S trai i? i 19 Yes. 20 MR. : You don't remember the 20 MR. . Great. 21 answer? 21 MR. Okay. That's the basic 22 MR...eah. 22 background we cover to -- 23 MR. : It was probably shortly 23 MR. • Yeah, no -- 24 afteriiiiiiiiiied, correct? 24 MR. -- on that. 25 : Yes. 25 MR. . -- you can go into the 11 12 1 questions. 1 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as 2 MR. : So, what we're going to talk 2 well as his cellmate, to try to get both of 3 to you today about is Mr. -. Are you aware of 3 their sides of the story. 4 who Jeffre E stein is? 4 MR. . Was that 5 Yes. 5 : Yes. Mr. 6 91 : And was he an inmate at the 6 MR. Okay. 7 MCC? 7 : I spoke to Epstein in the R&D 8 : Yes. 8 area. He was a little hesitant, at first, 9 MR. : Were you familiar with him 9 about speaking to me. He kept asking me who 10 while he was housed here at the MCC? 10 was I? You know, what was I interviewing him 11 : Yeah. I would say yes. 11 for? And I explained to him my position as the 12 MR. : Okay. Let's start off. 12 SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are 13 Well, were you familiar with his first suicide 13 met, and, you know, I questioned him about 14 attemiiiIIIIIII 14 whose the alleged suicide attempt, and he said, 15 : Yes. I did the first 15 I don't remember what happened. I remember him 16 investigation on that one. Yes. 16 telling me he went to get a drink of water, and 17 MR. : Did that approximately, did 17 all he remembered is he was on the floor. And 18 that happen approximately around July 23rd, 18 the staff will come in and he wouldn't provide 19 2019? 19 much of anything else. 20 Yes. 20 I did question him about Mr. 21 MR. : Can you tell us what 21 You know, did you guys have any words with each 22 happened? Based on your investigation and what 22 other? You know, we were just cellmates at the 23 you found. 23 time. You know, when you went to get the drink 24 : Based on my investigation, 24 of water, and he would -. Either he say he was 25 once I found out about the suicide attempt when 25 laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00064268  13 14 1 You know? I asked him, you know, are you 1 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. 2 telling me the truth? Is there anything that 2 I can't tell you that they found it around his 3 you would like to volunteer? You know, did you 3 neck because I can't remember. To be honest 4 intentionally try to harm yourself? And at 4 with you. 5 times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. I 5 MR. : And how did the C.O.s become 6 don't know what happened. I just got a drink 6 aware that he had possibly tried to commit 7 of water, and next thing you know, I was on the 7 suicide? 8 floor. 8 : To my knowledge, Mr. 9 MR. : Did you ask him if 9 is who alerted the officers, by 10 attempted to harm him? 10 banging on the door. 11 : Yes. 11 MR. : And when the officers found 12 MR. : And what did he say to 12 him, did they find a noose around his neck? 13 that? 13 How diiiiiiiiiind him, do you recall? 14 : And he said no. 14 : I can't recall. I know that 15 MR. : And he said 15 they found him on the floor. But I can't 16 did not -- 16 recall if it was around his neck. 17 Yes. 17 MR. : And Mr. Epstein stated that 18 MR. • -- try to harm him? 18 did not try to kill him. 19 He said he did not. 19 : Yes. 20 MR. Okay. 20 MR. : Except there was a noose. 21 MR. Was there a noose found 21 : Yes. 22 around his neck, at that point? Do you know? 22 MR. : Did he mention if he made the 23 : I think it was. I think it 23 noose himself or how the noose came about? 24 was. At the time. It was a rope, I want to 24 : No. He didn't. 25 say, or something to that effect. They had 25 MR. : And what was your impression 15 16 1 after talking to him? Did you believe that he 1 : I don't. 2 tried to take his own life? 2 MR. So, was it inconclusive? 3 : I kind of had mixed feelings 3 : It was pretty inconclusive. 4 about it because he was insistent on that he 4 MR. What is your feeling of 5 didn't try to take his own life. You know? 5 what happened, though? Being a trained 6 Normally, a person will say, okay, this was 6 investi ator. 7 going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try 7 : I don't know if it was, you 8 to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. 8 know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, 9 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during 9 was this, like, did he intentionally try to do 10 the investigation and conclusion, I can't say 10 something to get our attention? You know, then 11 that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be 11 I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You 12 honest with you. From the answers that I was 12 have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you 13 getting back from him. 13 know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did 14 MR. : But he stated himself that 14 is telling me the truth. You know, 15 didn't try to kill him? 15 I really can't say what happened because you 16 : Yes. 16 have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, 17 MR. : So, the only other option 17 no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I 18 would have possibly been that he tried to 18 asked about them interacting. Do they talk? 19 commit suicide himself? 19 And he's, like, yes, we talk. 20 : Right. 20 You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We 21 MR. : Okay. 21 read books. He, you know? So, it wasn't no 22 MR. Or do you believe that 22 reason for me to believe that Mr. 23 inmate attempted to harm him? 23 you know, tried to harm him because Epstein 24 I don't. 24 didn't give me that impression. 25 MR. Yeah. 25 MR. And was he placed on EFTA00064269  17 18 1 suicide watch as a result? 1 MR. : No? 2 : Yes. 2 : No. I wouldn't say that. 3 MR. : So then, wouldn't you 3 Normally, they do their evaluation, the 4 only be placed on suicide watch if the thought 4 psychology department, and when I guess they 5 was that he was attempting to self-harm? 5 determined that the inmates could return to the 6 : If that was the thought made 6 general population, then they will release them 7 by the ps chola department -- 7 from the suicide watch. 8 MR. Okay. 8 MR. : Okay. So, the SIS 9 -- they would definitely 9 determination of inconclusive doesn't actually 10 place you on suicide watch. Even if you said 10 play into if he's on or off of suicide watch. 11 it out of playing, they would place you on a 11 • I don't think it did. 12 suicide watch. 12 MR. Okay. 13 MR. : So, do you know how they 13 : I don't think it did. 14 made that determination that he would be placed 14 MR. • Inmate Had he 15 on suicide watch? 15 been at the MCC for a long time? 16 : I don't know. 16 : Yeah. He's been at the MCC 17 MR. Okay. 17 for quite some time. 18 I don't know. 18 MR. : Did he have any history of 19 MR. But it wasn't based upon 19 violence with any of the inmates? 20 your investi ation? 20 : Not violence. He was more of 21 : No. 21 a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with 22 MR. . Was it actually your 22 a cellphone at a time. 23 investigation concluded, which actually brought 23 MR. : Is -- 24 him off of suicide watch? 24 : You know -- 25 : No. 25 MR. -- is that why -- 19 20 1 -- something to that effect. 1 : I'm not sure which one were 2 MR. . -- he was in the SHU? 2 removed, or if they both was placed in 3 : I think that's why he was in 3 different cells, with different cellmates. I'm 4 SHU at that time. 4 not sure. 5 MR. : Do you recall how 5 MR. : Well -. 6 got chosen to be E stein's inmate? 6 MR. Well, inmate Epstein was 7 MR. • Cellmate. 7 actuall laced on suicide watch. 8 MR. : Cellmate. Sorry. 8 : Right. But I'm not sure if 9 : Oh. 9 Mr. remained in that same cell. 10 MR. : Sorry. 10 MR. : Okay. But he was in the SHU 11 : Actually, I don't. I don't 11 after that meeting with him? 12 know how they put the two of them together. 12 : Yes. 13 Normally, if it's, you know, if we're vetting 13 MR. : Were there any issues with 14 cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you 14 him after that incident? 15 know, who do you think would be more suitable, 15 : With? 16 but in Epstein's case, nobody asked me. So, I 16 MR. : With 17 don't know how they became cellmates. 17 : Not that I'm aware of. 18 MR. : You don't know if any 18 MR. : Okay. And we asked about the 19 decisions were made by the higher ups, in 19 suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate 20 regards to him? 20 was - an incident like this happened, let's 21 : I don't know. 21 skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- 22 MR. : Okay. And after this 22 Okay. 23 incident happened, was removed from 23 MR. : -- if an inmate was found 24 the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from 24 with a noose, and there was a possibility of a 25 the cell? 25 suicide, what's the normal procedure that EFTA00064270  21 22 1 happens? What happens to the inmate? What 1 MR. : Do you think that was too 2 does the MCC do with the inmate? 2 early to remove him from suicide watch? I know 3 : If it was an incident where 3 this is -. What is the difference between 4 he was found, let's say, while I was a 4 psychliiiiiiiiiicide watch? 5 lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove 5 : It's the same area. Psych 6 him from the cell, of course, immediately. 6 ops is, they just get their clothing back. But 7 Notify psychology of what occurred. At that 7 they are still being watched. 8 point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, 8 MR. It's the same thing, 9 with an inmate companion watching him, but I 9 right? 10 would make sure, you know, we take all of his 10 : It's the same thing. 11 clothing, everything, and he would get nothing 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. 12 : They're still being watched 13 MR. : And how long does that normal 13 by an inmate companion. 14 suicide watch last? 14 MR. : Is there any other benefit to 15 : It can vary. 15 being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide 16 MR. : What's the shortest you've 16 watch versus psych observation - any benefits 17 ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? 17 to being iiiiiiiiiips? 18 : Maybe a couple of days, but I 18 MR. : Yeah. You have your 19 can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or 19 clothes. 20 three. Biiiiiibe a couple of days. 20 : You get your clothes. 21 MR. : Based on what we've found 21 : Your clothes. 22 out, it looks like this attempt was on the 22 : I mean -. 23 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from 23 : Was it - if it was any other 24 suicide watch and placed in psych observation. 24 inmate - would they have given back his clothes 25 : Right. 25 that fast? 23 24 1 ' I don't know. That would be 1 MR. Nope. 2 the psychiiiiiidepartment determination. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. : Okay. Did you - now, moving 3 MR. • You can go ahead. 4 forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, 4 MR. : Now, let's go to August 9th. 5 that he was removed from psych observation, and 5 Were ou working on August 9th, 2019? 6 he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall 6 : I think I was off August 9th. 7 hearing why he was removed from psych 7 MR. : Okay. Let me just -. Would 8 observation 8 you be -. Would your name be on the -? 9 : No. 9 : On the roster? 10 MR. -- and placed back in the 10 MR. : On the roster. 11 SHU? 11 : Yeah. I would be on the 12 : No. 12 roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left 13 MR. Do you have any questions? 13 early August 9th. Or something. I can't 14 MR. Yeah. Just to go back, 14 remember. 15 file back to So, I knew 15 MR. : I'm going to provide you a 16 you - when asked - you said you weren't, you 16 copy of Au ust 9th -- 17 knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of 17 : Okay. 18 a guy, but do you know of any instances where 18 MR. -- roster. MCC SHU roster. 19 he actuall did harm another inmate? 19 : Yes. 20 No. 20 MR. : If you can take a look at it 21 MR. No? 21 and let me know if you were on schedule. 22 No. 22 : No. I'm not on it. 23 MR. Great. Thank you. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : All right. Anything else on 24 MR. Okay. 25 the -? 25 MR. : And who -- EFTA00064271  25 26 1 MR. : Oh, sorry. 1 MR. : Where -? 2 MR. : -- where would that be 2 I would be under the SIS 3 listed? Sorry. 3 Lieutenant, if you -. Under the SHU 4 MR. : I thought you were going 4 Lieutenant. I would be under the SIS 5 to -. I thought we were just talking about 5 Lieutenant. 6 this. This next one. Did you hear anything - 6 MR. : And there is - on that 9th, 7 just going back, before we talk about the 7 what does it state there? It says unassigned? 8 suicide watch, psychological observation room, 8 : Unassigned. 9 we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone 9 MR. : So, no one was working that 10 contacting the MCC and requesting that he be 10 day? 11 removed from sychological observation? 11 : No. I was the only SIS 12 : No. 12 Lieutenant. I'm trying to think. Yeah. 13 MR. : No? And you didn't hear 13 Nobody was in there that day. 14 that, like, for instance, his attorneys were 14 MR. : Can you just circle that for 15 trying to get him off of psychological 15 us? 16 observation, so that they could continue with 16 Sure. 17 their attorne /client visits? 17 MR. So, you were not here on 18 : No. I didn't hear. 18 the 9th, is what you are saying? 19 MR. : You never heard that? 19 No. 20 : No. 20 MR. Okay. 21 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we 21 No. 22 can move to the actual -. 22 MR. And no one was? 23 MR. : So, I showed you the August 23 Not in the SIS Shop. 24 9th roster. You said you are not on there? 24 MR. Oh, wow. Is that 25 : Can I -. Actually -- 25 abnormal, for being a Friday, without anyone 27 28 1 being in SIS? 1 MR. (Indiscernible *00:19:36). 2 : Actually, the SIS Technician, 2 -- on Friday. I can't recall 3 her days off is Friday and Saturday. 3 why. 4 MR. : Oh, wow. 4 MR. . Sure. 5 : And at the time, it was only 5 : But -. 6 two of usiiiiiiiiiin the whole area. 6 MR. : And who was the SIS tech? 7 MR. : So, there was only one 7 : Her name is 8 tech and lieutenant? 8 (Phonetic *00:19:43). 9 One tech and one lieutenant. 9 MR. 10 MR. : Would the SIA have been 10 Yes. 11 on? 11 MR. : All right. 12 : We didn't have one at the 12 MR. : But she wasn't here? 13 time. 13 No. She wasn't here. 14 MR. Oh, so it was literally 14 MR. : And do you recall that 15 just the two of you? 15 you actually - I know that the schedule says 16 Yes. 16 that - but do you recall not being here? 17 MR. : Okay. So, this wasn't, 17 Thinking that it was the day before. 18 then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was 18 Yes. 19 working? 19 MR. • Okay. 20 No. I normally -- 20 MR. : Put this here just in case we 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 21 need to go back. 22 *00:1iiiiiiiiii 22 MR. : Okay. 23 -- on a Friday, I would have 23 MR. : When did you first become 24 been on because she would have been off. So, I 24 aware that Epstein's cellmate, inmate 25 took off -- 25 was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00064272  29 30 1 : The day of the actual 1 MR. : What's a normal procedure, 2 suicide. 2 how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being 3 MR. : When you say actual suicide, 3 moved to court, or being transferred out? 4 which would be -- 4 : From court, you're saying? 5 : August 10th. 5 MR. : From court. Let's say -- 6 MR. -- August 10th. 6 : You're talking about court. 7 : Yes. 7 MR. - was 8 MR. : Saturday, when you came in, 8 MR. : Well, no, in this case, 9 that's when you learned -? 9 did you ever hear that actually never 10 : When I came in. Mm-hmm. 10 went to court, he actually was transferred to 11 MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, 11 another institution? 12 when you came in, what were you aware of why 12 : No. I heard he went to 13 was removed from the institution? 13 court. 14 : After speaking to him, they 14 MR. : So, even to this date -- 15 told me he got released from court. That's 15 And was released from court. 16 what I was told. 16 MR. -- to this date, did you 17 MR. : Who told you that he was -? 17 ever hear that, that he never went to court? 18 : Not sure. 18 He actually was transferred? 19 MR. : Not sure. Okay. 19 No. I've never heard that. 20 : I can't remember. 20 MR. : Oh, you've never even 21 MR. So, your understanding was, 21 heard that? 22 went to court and he just didn't come 22 No. 23 back? 23 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because 24 : Right. That's what I 24 that's what happened. He never went to court. 25 understand. 25 He was transferred. 31 32 1 I still don't know. 1 MR. : And it says, transfer of 2 MR. : That's what 2 inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. 3 (Indiscernible *00:21:24). 3 This email was sent to them. If you take a 4 : That's (Indiscernible 4 look at the title, the subject, it says, 5 have -- 5 "Transfer of inmates." 6 MR. : Sure. 6 Yeah. 7 -- assumed that he went to 7 MR. : And it says, "Transfer of 8 court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he 8 prisoners from -- 9 made bail or something -- 9 : I see it. 10 MR. Okay. 10 MR. -- to GO. (Phonetic Sp. 11 -- and he got released from 11 *00:22:10 12 court. 12 : To GO. And inmate 13 MR. But that's what everybody 13 is stated on this. So, he never -. It's 14 was sa in that he actually went to court. 14 not that he went to court. He actually was 15 : Yes. 15 transferred to GO. Do you know what the 16 MR. Okay. 16 procedure is for something like that? If an 17 MR. : So, based on what we - our 17 inmate is to be transferred, how do they pull 18 investigation, I'll show you an email. This 18 the inmate out? How do they let the SHU know 19 email is dated -. This is from 19 that the inmate needs to be pulled out? 20 (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:46), from the U.S. Marshal 20 : Normally, R&D would get in 21 Service. 21 touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in 22 23 .E MI Okay. 22 the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their : And it went to, it looks like 23 courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. 24 the em to ees at the R&D. 24 MR. : Is that known as a court 25 : Mm-hmm. 25 list? EFTA00064273  33 34 1 : A court list. 1 Right. 2 MR. : And that list comes over, and 2 MR. : And when, as an SIS, 3 they let the SHU officers know? 3 would you get a copy of those court production 4 Yes. 4 lists 5 MR. : So, they prepare them. And 5 No. 6 on that - if that he was leaving - what would 6 MR. -- or productions? No? 7 it state on the -? Have you ever heard the 7 No. 8 term, WAB? 8 MR. Okay. 9 Yes. 9 MR. : Do you know, I mean, it's on 10 : What does -- 10 the top, do you ever -. Do you recall, after 11 : Yes. 11 this investigation started, after Epstein's 12 . WAB mean to you? 12 death, ever seeing that court list for that 13 : With All Belongings. 13 day? 14 MR. : And what is your 14 No. I've never seen it. 15 underiiiiiiiilif it states that? 15 MR. : If we wanted to obtain a copy 16 : To me, With All Belongings 16 of it, do you know if there's any way we can 17 can mean anything. You know, where is he 17 obtaiiiiiiiiilif that? 18 going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? 18 : I would think it should be in 19 MR. : But does it mean that he's 19 the Receiiiiiiind Discharge area. 20 comm a back? 20 MR. : And that's something that 21 : To me, no. 21 they -- 22 MR. : And your understanding is, if 22 The R&D. 23 it sa s WAB he's leaving for certain? 23 MR. : -- if we asked, and based on 24 Right. 24 it, it said no one seems to have maintained a 25 MR. : Okay. 25 copy of that. It looks like they've printed 35 36 1 , and then they disposed of it. 1 You didn't ever maintain, you know, obtain that 2 : I don't know. 2 court list though? 3 Okay. 3 : I didn't have the court list. 4 MR. Was it kept, though, 4 MR. : Okay. 5 under your investigation, for when you went in 5 I don't recall having a court 6 on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, 6 list. No. 7 part of, like, anything that you would have 7 MR. And so, do you - if R&D 8 collected? 8 doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is 9 : Did I? I don't think I had 9 any way that we could get our hands on one of 10 the court list. 10 these court lists? 11 MR. . No? 11 : I don't know. I don't know, 12 : To be honest with you. I had 12 in SENTRY, because I don't deal with their 13 a lot of stuff. But I don't recall seeing the 13 functions. So, I don't even know if they were 14 court list. 14 able to - be able to go back. 15 MR. So, in the stuff -- 15 MR. : Yeah, no, they can't. 16 Oh. 16 They replace it every day. 17 MR. -- that you did, on the 17 Right. 18 10th, did you involve at all, did you look into 18 MR. Every (Indiscernible 19 it at all, leaving and Epstein not having 19 *00:25:14), so no one -- 20 a cellmate? 20 : See, I don't -- 21 : I think I did. I think I did 21 MR. -- is going to maintain 22 run his SENTRY_QA2trwork, once I got here. to 22 in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other 23 see where was IIIII. What happened with 23 email? 24 I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. 24 MR. : Which one? 25 MR. Okay. But you didn't -. 25 MR. : The one that they sent EFTA00064274  37 38 1 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was 1 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you 2 being transferred. 2 recall that anyone from upper management, or 3 MR. : Oh, no. I don't have that 3 even psych, mentioning that he was required to 4 email. I think that's separate. I didn't 4 have a cellmate? 5 print that one out. 5 : I didn't hear it, per se. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 6 But normally, when they come off of suicide 7 are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshal 7 watch, or a psych observation, they have to 8 Service - at least back then, I don't know if 8 have a cellmate. And psychology, usually 9 they still do this - but they would send out an 9 harbor on that. You know? They have to -- 10 email the day before, which would be sent to, 10 MR. : Why is it -- 11 like, all the lieutenants, and a number of 11 -- have a cellmate. 12 other people, for people who, the following 12 MR. -- why is it that they need a 13 day, are going to court or being transferred. 13 cellmate? 14 Are you familiar with that email that's sent by 14 : I don't want to guess, but I 15 the Marshal Service? 15 would say, even though, you know, an attempt 16 : I've probably seen it. 16 possibly was made, you want to prevent 17 MR. : Okay. But you don't 17 something ha going forward. 18 reall know what I'm talking about? 18 MR. : And do you recall - but you 19 : Oh, it -- 19 said you're not sure - but do you recall that 20 MR. : Okay. 20 there was a requirement for Epstein to have a 21 • -- I would have to see it. 21 cellmate? 22 To be honest with ou. 22 : Yes. I do recall them saying 23 MR. : Okay. 23 he had to have a cellmate. 24 MR. : I'm going to take a step 24 MR. : And that was by word of 25 back. When Epstein was brought out of psych 25 mouth? 39 40 1 By word of mouth. 1 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, 2 MR. : Do you recall who you heard 2 because he would know that he's leaving out of 3 it from? 3 the SHU. 4 : Let's see. I want to say III 4 MR. : And this is the August 9th 5 , who is the psychologist. I want to say 5 roster agiiiiiiiiliou take -. 6 said that he has to have a cellmate. 6 MR. : So, SHU Lieutenant 7 MR. : So, she probably came down. 7 was actuall off -- 8 Do you recall if she told other people in the 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 SHU,., in * to that? 9 MR. -- on the 9th, as well. 10 : I don't know because I 10 : Okay. 11 wouldn't have been in the SHU. 11 MR. So, if he is off, then 12 MR. : All right. 12 who would then become the next person -- 13 : Sorry. 13 : The next person -- 14 MR. : The reason I ask is, now that 14 MR. -- moving up? 15 we know that is leaving the SHU, right? 15 • -- would be the Operations 16 And he's WAB, that, and the court list comes 16 Lieutenant should been notified. 17 down, and our understanding is, on that court 17 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And who should have 18 list, it states WAB 18 notifiiiiiiiiiierations Lieutenant? 19 Mm-hmm. 19 : Normally, the SHU staff would 20 MR. -- and he's brought down to 20 say, you know, this guy left, and, you know, 21 R&D. And he's removed from the facility. 21 Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. 22 Whose responsibility would it have been, at 22 MR. And at what point -- 23 that point, to make sure that Epstein had a 23 So, I'm sorry -- 24 cellmate? 24 MR. • -- should the -- 25 : I would say the supervisor. 25 cellmate. EFTA00064275  41 42 1 MR. Eirhat's fine. 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : At what point should the 2 MR. : -- was there any specific 3 SHU staff have notified the Operations 3 person, during that time period, who was 4 Lieutenant? 4 considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 5 Immediately. 5 1 - but was considered to be the officer in 6 MR. So, as soon as that 6 charge? 7 persoiliiiiiiii -? 7 : Yes. It would been the SHU 8 : As soon as Mr. came out 8 number oniuilich would be Officer 9 that cell. 9 MR. IIIIII: . But what about, we 10 MR. Okay. And is it one 10 heard other people refer to as as, 11 person over another, within the SHU, that 11 though, the officer in charge. Because he's 12 should have told him? Or is it any one of 12 been in there the longest, at that point. 13 them? 13 : Yes. 14 No. 14 MR. : Have you ever heard that? 15 MR. Or all of them? 15 : Yes. 16 : I would say any one. 16 MR. : He would be the OIC? 17 MR. : Was there a person referred 17 : He was the OIC, probably for 18 to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during 18 the quartEL_Iald say, he was. 19 that time? Like, one specific -- 19 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And why wouldn't he be 20 : Yes. 20 listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the 21 MR. : -- person. 21 quarter? know? 22 : They do have, yes, the SHU 22 : He could have been on his day 23 OIC, yes.