EFTA00062510.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JULY 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00062510  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: STACEY RICHMAN MATTHEW FOOKSMAN EFTA00062511  3 1 : This is Special Agent 2 . The time is 11:15, I'm turning on the 3 recorder. Today is July 15, 2021. My name is 4 . I'm a Special Agent with the 5 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Inspector 6 General, New York Field Office and these are my 7 credentials. The interview is with the Federal 8 Bureau of Prisons employee, . It 9 is being conducted as part of an official U.S. 10 Department of Justice, Office of Inspector 11 General investigation. Today is July 15th. 12 The time is 11:16 a.m. The interview is being 13 conducted at Department of Justice Office of 14 Inspector General New York Field Office. Also 15 present is DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 16 • and please identify yourselves and - 17 . 18 : Spell your last name for 19 the record. 20 : Yeah. 21 • • 22 I, Federal Correctional Officer, MCC New York. 23 MS. RICHMAN: Stacey Richman, Richman Hill 24 and Associates, here to represent 25 and joining me is my Legal Intern for the EFTA00062512  4 1 summer. 2 : Can you spell your last name 3 too please? 4 MS. RICHMAN: R-I-C-H-M-A-N. 5 MR. FOOKSMAN: My name is Matthew 6 Fooksman, F-O-O-K-S-M-A-N, Legal Intern for 7 Stacey Richman. 8 : Again, I'm Special Agent 9 my last name is 10 : I'm Senior Special Agent 11 and 12 these are my credentials. 13 : This interview will be 14 recorded by me, Special Agent 15 This is an official DOJ investigation into the 16 death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the 17 surrounding circumstances. You are being asked 18 to voluntarily provide answers to our 19 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 20 interview with the DOJ OIG? 21 : Yes. 22 : I'm going to review DOJ OIG 23 form 11I-226-2, that's a Warnings and 24 Assurances form, Assurances to Employee 25 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary EFTA00062513  5 1 Basis. The form states, "You are being asked 2 to provide information as part of an 3 investigation being conducted by the Office of 4 Inspector General. This investigation is being 5 conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act 6 of 1978, as amended. The investigation 7 pertains to job performance failure and 8 security failure. This is a voluntary 9 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 10 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 11 be taken against you if you choose not to 12 answer any questions. Any statement you 13 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 14 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 15 proceedings or both." The waiver states, "I 16 understand the warnings and assurances stated 17 above and I am willing to make a statement and 18 answer questions. No promises or threats have 19 been made to me or no pressure or coercion of 20 any kind has been used against me." Do you 21 understand that? You can read it if you have 22 to and if you understand, please sign under 23 where it says, "Employee signature." 24 : And if you wanted to ask 25 any questions about it, this would be the time EFTA00062514  6 1 to do that. 2 MS. RICHMAN: Again, there is no concept 3 here that is a target or subject of 4 the investigation, this is simply into the 5 investigation of Mr. Epstein's demise. 6 : As of right now, he's just a 7 witness. 8 MS. RICHMAN: Yes. 9 : For the - he's not a subject 10 for the investigation. 11 MS. RICHMAN: I'm like 12 : So everyone that we 13 interview get this. This is just to be able to 14 tell them what the investigation is focusing 15 on. We don't have any reason to believe, 16 although, we don't know how he's going to 17 answer our questions. Going into this, you are 18 absolutely correct. We don't have any reason 19 to suspect that your client did anything wrong. 20 MS. RICHMAN: Thank you. 21 : This is Special Agent 22 I'm going to sign this under the signature of 23 the Office of the Inspector General, Special 24 Agent. 25 : And as mentioned, prior EFTA00062515  7 1 to, we just want to make sure that we stay 2 focused on this issue that we're discussing and 3 we do not deviate from the subject matter. All 4 right. This is Senior Special Agent 5 and I am signing as the witness. 6 : Before starting the 7 interview, I would like to place you under 8 oath. can you please raise your 9 right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 10 nothing but the truth during this interview? 11 : Yes, I do. 12 : Please let me know if you 13 don't understand any questions I ask. I will 14 repeat it and/or I will kindly rephrase it for 15 you. Okay? 16 : Okay. 17 : I want to clarify, again, 18 that this interview is specifically regarding 19 inmate Jeffrey Epstein. What is your current 20 home address? 21 -: 22 23 : What is your date of birth? 24 • • 25 : What's your social security EFTA00062516  8 1 number? 2 -: 3 : What is your current cell 4 phone number? 5 -: 6 : What is your highest level of 7 education? 8 : One year of college, maybe a 9 little less. 10 : What college? 11 12 : Where is that located? 13 • 14 : And what year did you do 15 that? 16 : Wow. 2004, I want to say, 17 or `05. 18 : Was there subject matter 19 that you studied? 20 : No. 21 : What did you do prior to 22 working for the BOP? 23 : I was a police officer with 24 the Homeless Services Police in the city 25 shelters. EFTA00062517  9 1 : Is this for New York City? 2 : Yes. 3 : And during what time? What 4 date? 5 : 2004-ish to 2011-ish. 6 : Do you have any military 7 service? 8 : No. 9 : And after 2011, did you join 10 the BOP? 11 : Yes. From 2011 until now. 12 : What was the entry on duty 13 date for SOP? 14 -• 15 : When did you graduate from 16 BOP training? 17 -: I believe. 18 : Of 19 : Yes. 20 : When and where was your first 21 office assignment with the BOP? 22 : MCC New York. 23 : Have you been with the MCC 24 the whole time? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062518  10 1 : And prior to that, you were 2 with the Homeless Service you mentioned, right? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. You were a police 5 officer? 6 : Yes. And a Sergeant. 7 : What was your position at the 8 MCC on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 9 : Senior Officer Specialist. 10 : And what shift did you work 11 on August 9th and 10th? 12 : Evening watch, 4:00 to 13 midnight. 14 : Both days? 15 : Yes. 16 : Who was your supervisor when 17 you worked at the MCC on August 9th and 10th? 18 : Wow. This was long ago. 19 : So I have a daily assignment 20 roster here for August 9th and 10th -- 21 : Yes. 22 : -- for the MCC New York. You 23 can take a look at it and let me know 24 : Okay. 25 -- if you know who that is, EFTA00062519  11 1 supervisor. 2 : So he means your 3 supervisor on duty at the time. Okay? 4 : Yes. So this is the 10th, 5 it says and the 9th says . Yeah. 6 They're both Lieutenants. 7 : Would anyone else have 8 been your - would you also have reported to the 9 Activities Lieutenant or just -. 10 : Yes. Activities on the 10th 11 was and on the 9th was 12 : That's in reference to the 13 list that they just showed you. 14 : Yes. 15 : You didn't remember on your 16 own. 17 : No, I can't - I mean, 18 they're obviously supervisors, but I didn't - I 19 don't remember who exactly worked for me that 20 day. 21 : Okay. I'm just going to 22 leave this in front of you if you need to -. 23 : Sure. 24 : As part of - when we show you 25 the documents, it's not that you're attesting EFTA00062520  12 1 to the documents, we just need you to initial 2 it, date it, just to show - say that that is a 3 document we showed you. 4 : Okay. 5 : So, just top right of the 6 document. 7 : If you don't mind just 8 writing the 9 : The date. 10 : -- the date too. 11 : Oh, the date? 12 : So 7/15. 13 : So on the 9th, what unit were 14 you working on, do you recall? 15 : I believe I was Internal. 16 Let's double check that. Yes. 17 : What about for the 10th? 18 : Internal. 19 : Internal. And as the 20 Internal Officer, what were your 21 responsibilities? 22 : All movement in the 23 building. You control the elevators, so, you 24 know, any attorney that comes in, any inmate 25 that has to go to Medical, inmate that has to EFTA00062521  13 1 go to R&D or attorney conference, you're moving 2 them in the elevator, possibly staff and if 3 they need movement and you're first responder 4 in the building, so. 5 : Do you recall what time you 6 started your shift on August 9th? 7 : If I worked 4:00 to 12:00, I 8 should be, you know, there obviously a little 9 before 4 10 : That's 4:00 p.m., 11 correct? 12 : Yes. 13 : Are you familiar with Jeffrey 14 Epstein? Inmate Jeffrey Epstein? 15 : Yes. 16 : How do you know him? 17 : Just from, you know, 18 bringing him to attorney conference and 19 obviously seeing him in the building, you know, 20 through movement and all that. 21 : Do you know if Inmate Jeffrey 22 Epstein had a cell mate? 23 : Yes, at one point he did 24 have a cell mate. 25 : Do you know who that was? EFTA00062522  14 1 : His first cell mate was 2 inmate Tartaglione and -- 3 : Okay. 4 : -- yeah, that was his first 5 cell mate. 6 : Do you recall why Epstein was 7 assigned a cell mate? 8 : He was in Special Housing, 9 you just have a cell mate. That's, you know, 10 unless you're in protective custody, but he 11 wasn't under protective custody, he was just in 12 Special Housing, so. 13 : So if you're in Special 14 Housing, you have to have a cell mate? 15 : Yes. It's limited space so, 16 you know, unless you're there, like I said, in 17 protective custody where you can't have a cell 18 mate, that's different. But if there's room to 19 put - there's only a certain amount of room, so 20 you've got to bunkie up, you know, to 21 accommodate. 22 : Was there any other reason 23 that Epstein was assigned a cell mate that you 24 were aware of? 25 : No, not that I'm aware of. EFTA00062523  15 1 : Were you aware that Epstein 2 had attempted to commit suicide on July 23rd? 3 : Yes. 4 : Were you one of the 5 responding officers? 6 : Yes, I was. 7 : Can you explain what 8 transpired? 9 : So, I was working Special 10 Housing Unit on overtime and me and the officer 11 had heard some sort of commotion and we were 12 about to do our round down that tier, I believe 13 it was M tier and inmate Tartaglione was his 14 bunkie and he was at the door asking for help. 15 We got there. When I looked, because 16 Tartaglione is a little bit big and the window 17 is small, I asked him to move to the side. I 18 saw Epstein with something tied around his 19 neck, but he was sitting on the floor. I told 20 him, you know, "Call for medical assistance," I 21 told my partner. We cuffed up Tartaglione, 22 took him out. I took it off from Epstein's 23 neck and we started doing CPR, but he was 24 breathing. You know, he was already breathing 25 and everything. EFTA00062524  16 1 : Did Epstein make any 2 statements to you -- 3 : Nothing. 4 and state what happened? 5 : No, he was still not talking 6 when we got him out of the cell and put him on 7 the stretcher and when we took him out, he 8 spoke with Operations Lieutenant and someone 9 because I couldn't leave Special Housing, I had 10 to stay there so I don't know what he said. He 11 didn't say nothing to me personally. 12 : Did Tartaglione make any 13 statements of what transpired? 14 : He was just shooken up. He 15 was like, you know, that he was sleeping, 16 because Tartaglione slept on the floor, 17 something with his back he said. So he was 18 sleeping on the floor and he said he just felt 19 someone dump on him and he woke up, you know, 20 frightened and then, you know, that's it, so he 21 was shooken up, like he was still half asleep, 22 you know. 23 : And when you walked in the 24 cell, just to clarify, when you walked in the 25 cell, you saw Epstein hanging? EFTA00062525  17 1 : So, he had a sheet around 2 his neck, but he was on the floor on his butt. 3 : Okay. 4 : So. 5 And where was - when you 6 walked - what part of the cell was he in? 7 : Well, pretty much dead 8 center. The way the beds are set up, which I'm 9 sure you've seen the beds, there's nothing to 10 tie from the ceiling. So he had tied it from 11 the ladder and I guess he tried to cannonball, 12 that's what a lot of inmates try to do, like 13 grab their legs and go down. But it wasn't 14 tied hard enough so I guess he landed on his 15 butt. 16 : So it wasn't hooked onto the 17 ladder? 18 : Yeah, it was hook-. 19 It was hooked up. 20 : Yeah, yeah. 21 : Okay. 22 : So, I took it off of his 23 neck, but, yeah, it was hooked on the bed. 24 : Do you have anything else on 25 that? EFTA00062526  18 1 : Yes. So if it was hooked 2 on the ladder, did any part of it remain on the 3 ladder? 4 : I don't remember, to be 5 honest. 6 : No? 7 : Truthfully. 8 : And when you said, when 9 he jumped off and potentially like a cannonball 10 style, did he reach -. 11 : Well, I'm assuming how he 12 jumped off. I didn't see him. 13 : Sure. 14 So, yeah. 15 : But he potentially landed 16 on Tartaglione? 17 : Well, that's what 18 Tartaglione is saying, that that's how he woke 19 up because he felt him land on him. 20 : Okay, 21 : So. But when I got there, 22 yes, he was on the floor near the ladder in a 23 sitting position and it was around his neck. 24 : Can you describe the sitting 25 position? EFTA00062527  19 1 : His back was against the 2 ladder, so, you know, he wasn't laying flat. 3 But his legs were - one of his legs was 4 definitely straight out. I can't remember how 5 the - I think the other leg might have been 6 curved a little bit. But that's about it. He 7 was on his butt though and his back against the 8 ladder with, you know. 9 : Did you hear anything 10 with regard to Tartaglione potentially 11 attempting to harm Epstein? 12 : In the days prior, that was 13 the rumor that was circulating that allegedly 14 Epstein must have told someone, Operations or 15 whatnot, but no one has directly told me. I 16 just remember hearing it in the building. But 17 what I do know is when he came off suicide 18 watch, Epstein, he did ask to go back with 19 Tartaglione. 20 : So when you say, "The 21 days prior," do you mean the days after? 22 : I mean the days after, you 23 know, the days after he attempted suicide. He 24 went on suicide watch then his lawyers reached 25 out and said, you know, it was an attempted EFTA00062528  20 1 assault. I don't know what they said, but I 2 was there when they took him off suicide watch 3 and they said, you know, "It wasn't a suicide, 4 so take him off," but, you know, "Put him back 5 in Special Housing," whatever the case may be 6 and he asked to go back with Tartaglione and 7 the Lieutenant was like, "No, he can't do 8 that." So I'm assuming he told the Lieutenant 9 that it was an assault. 10 : And do you - is the 11 assumption that he wasn't allowed because 12 Epstein -. 13 : That's what I'm assuming, 14 yeah. 15 : Because Eps-. 16 : That's why they -. 17 : So if - so Epstein - you 18 believe that Epstein did make a claim that 19 Tartaglione attempted to harm him and that's 20 why he wasn't allowed to be placed with him? 21 : Yeah, I would have to assume 22 that because there would be no other reason why 23 not to put them back together. 24 : Okay. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062529  21 1 : But Epstein specifically 2 did ask to be put back -- 3 : Yes. 4 : -- with Tartaglione? 5 : Yeah. 6 : How do you know that? 7 : Because I don't remember 8 exactly where I was bringing him but he was in 9 the elevator with me and he asked me why he 10 couldn't be paired up with him again and I 11 said, "I don't know. That's something you have 12 to ask the Operations Lieutenant." And he was 13 like, "Yeah, but I don't understand, you know, 14 we were bunkies, everything was cool." I said, 15 "Listen, I have nothing to do with that. 16 That's above my pay grade, you must have said 17 something though. They're not going to just 18 separate you guys for no reason." 19 : And this was directly 20 from Epstein himself? 21 : Yes, yes. 22 : Okay. 23 : He told me that in the 24 elevator. 25 : Is there any reason for EFTA00062530  22 1 you to believe that Tartaglione in fact tried 2 to harm Epstein? 3 : I don't think so. Reason 4 why I say I don't think so, I mean, I don't put 5 nothing past nobody because, you know, I don't 6 know them like that, but he was trying to stay 7 out of a lot of trouble because of what he was 8 facing with his own case. I don't know if 9 you're familiar with his case or whatnot and 10 I'm not -. 11 : Please feel free to tell 12 us. 13 : I mean, I just know he was 14 facing murder charges, that's all I know. 15 : Tartaglione. 16 : Yes. And he was real 17 concentrated on beating that case. And my 18 personal experience, someone trying to beat a 19 case is not going to try to kill someone else 20 while you're trying to beat a murder charge. 21 It just doesn't add up to me. 22 : And do you know what 23 resulted in Tartaglione's case? 24 : No. 25 : No? EFTA00062531  23 1 : No, I don't. 2 : But he was at least - he 3 allegedly murdered someone, that's was what he 4 was in - do you feel like he was the right 5 person to be assigned to Epstein? 6 : I mean, truthfully, he's had 7 other bunkies and there's never been an issue, 8 so I don't think it was like a bad choice, you 9 know. 10 : Do you know how 11 Tartaglione was selected to be Epstein's 12 bunkie? 13 : No, that I don't know. 14 : No? Do you know if it 15 went above the heads of the staff in the SHU? 16 : I wouldn't doubt it. 17 Because a lot of things that transpired with 18 Epstein was above our heads. 19 : Okay. 20 : You know, the judge would 21 call or whoever would call and then it would 22 come from the Captain who told the Lieutenant, 23 the Lieutenant would give the order. So a lot 24 of stuff was not the officers. Usually it's up 25 the officers in SHU. You, you know, "You do EFTA00062532  24 1 this, you do that." A lot of stuff that 2 happened with him came from outside orders. 3 : Okay. 4 : Yeah. 5 : And you mentioned 6 something about how Epstein was no longer 7 suicidal and that's why they placed him back in 8 the housing unit. Do you know why they made 9 that determination that he was no longer 10 suicidal? 11 : From what I heard, because 12 obviously medical staff clears them, so I 13 don't, you know, I have no part in clearing 14 anybody. But from what I heard, the reason why 15 he came off is his lawyers told something to 16 the judge and the judge called the building 17 saying, "He shouldn't be on suicide watch, get 18 him off." Because when you're on suicide watch 19 you don't get attorney visits. So, and he used 20 to get attorney visits every day, like she said 21 and he would have that room like from when 22 attorney opens until when attorney conference 23 closes. So when he went on suicide watch you 24 don't get it no more. So I don't know what 25 transpired, but the lawyers spoke to the judge EFTA00062533  25 1 and the judge called MCC and said, "Take him 2 off," you know, "He's to come off suicide 3 watch." 4 : Where did you hear that 5 information from? 6 : From the Ops Lieutenant. 7 : Which Ops Lieutenant? 8 : At that time, we'd done so 9 many hours and worked with so many people. I 10 was doing close to 72 hours a week some weeks, 11 you know, so -- 12 : Okay. 13 : -- it could have been any - 14 I don't remember exactly what Lieutenant said 15 it, but I remember them saying he came off 16 suicide watch because of, you know, we got a 17 phone call saying he had to come off suicide 18 watch. 19 : Who would have the judge 20 contacted to tell someone at the MCC that was 21 the call. 22 : That would come from his 23 lawyers. 24 : Would the lawyers have 25 contacted the AW, the Warden? Who do you EFTA00062534  26 1 believe they would have contacted? 2 : Well, if you contact the 3 judge, the judge is going to contact the Warden 4 and then it trickles down. 5 : Okay. And who was the 6 Warden at that time? 7 -: (Phonetic Sp. 8 *00:18:14). 9 : Was it 10 : Actually, yes, it was 11 , I apologize. 12 : All right, so, you -. 13 : I've been gone 16 months -- 14 : Sure. 15 -- it's like, you know. 16 : Absolutely. Okay. And 17 then the other thing that I want to follow up 18 is (Indiscernible *00:18:39). 19 : Yes, it was - at that time 20 it was Warden , that's my fault. 21 : Do you know when, prior 22 to Epstein going on suicide watch, do you 23 remember what cell he was assigned to? 24 : The exact cell number? 25 : Even the tier would be EFTA00062535  27 1 fine. 2 : Before he went on suicide 3 watch? I believe it was M tier, first cell on 4 the right. 5 : M tier, first cell on the 6 right? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. 9 : If I'm not mistaken, before 10 he went on suicide watch you said. 11 : Sure, yes. 12 : Yes. It was because you go 13 down, it was to the (Indiscernible *00:18:57). 14 Yeah, it would be M tier, first cell on the 15 right. 16 : On that note, after he 17 came back from suicide watch, do you know where 18 he was assigned? 19 : Yes. It was L tier, the 20 tier above it, first cell on the right. 21 : L tier, first cell - so 22 both times, first cells on the right? 23 : Yes. 24 : All right. And how do 25 you know that information? EFTA00062536  28 1 : Well, one, I know because 2 I'll transport, you know, and I'm on Special 3 Housing quite a bit just bringing inmates back 4 from attorney conference or helping out, 5 whatever the case may be. But I know the first 6 cell because I'm the one that responded when 7 he, you know, tried to attempt suicide the 8 first time, so I remember that. And the second 9 one I know because, you know, I worked that 10 unit on overtime. Not the night he did it, but 11 so I know the cell he was in. 12 : Okay. And you know the 13 cell because you were working in the unit you 14 said? 15 : Yes, I had worked in that 16 unit after he was on suicide watch. 17 : who actually brings 18 Epstein - who used to bring Epstein from the 19 SHU down to attorney visiting? Would that be 20 Internal or who would do that? 21 : Well, what would happen is, 22 unless they're severely busy, but Internal, we 23 just meet them at the door. So whatever 24 officers are there, take him out of the thing, 25 you know, they get a phone call and then they EFTA00062537  29 1 call us on the radio, "Internal, we got one 2 ready for attorney conference, you want to come 3 upstairs." 4 : Okay. 5 : They're at the door, they 6 hand them off or they come with us, whatever 7 they choose, you know, but -. 8 : Right. So you're not 9 actually physically getting him from the cell 10 or -- 11 : No. 12 : -- placing him back in 13 the cell. 14 : I mean, has it happened? 15 Yes, if they're busy, severely busy or whatnot 16 or maybe the inmate is acting irate and they 17 just want extra staff, but normally, no. it's 18 whoever is posted there brings them and brings 19 them back, we're just the middle man, you know. 20 : Okay. Do you remember 21 ever having to either retrieve Epstein from his 22 cell or place him back in the cell when he was 23 staying in the SHU? 24 : Truthfully, no. I can't 25 : Yeah, no, no, that's EFTA00062538  30 1 fine. I'm just trying - the only reason for 2 this questioning is to just positively 3 determine that you knew that's where he was 4 assigned. 5 : Yeah. 6 : So, but -- 7 : I mean, I know 8 : -- just from working 9 : -- that's where he was 10 assigned, but just, yeah. 11 : And you know it from 12 working in the unit. 13 : Yes, because I did a lot of 14 overtime over nights and I would be assigned 15 there and I know exactly from doing counts and 16 doing rounds and feeding or whatnot, so. 17 : Okay. Great. And then 18 the other thing that you mentioned, before 19 moving on is, you said that that was not the 20 only inmate who was assigned to Epstein as a 21 cell mate. Who else was assigned to Epstein as 22 a cell mate. 23 : So, I don't remember his 24 name and he wasn't there long. So I don't - I 25 truthfully don't even remember his face, but I EFTA00062539  31 1 remember he had another bunkie when he came 2 back and that guy, if I'm not mistaken, I could 3 be wrong, was shipped out either the day before 4 or the morning of when Epstein, you know, 5 killed himself. 6 : Okay. So was there only 7 two cell mates that were assigned to Epstein? 8 : That I know of, yes. 9 : Okay, so one prior to the 10 suicide attempt and one after the -- 11 : Yes. 12 : -- suicide attempt. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Great. , back to 15 you. 16 : Do you recognize the name 17 inmate Efrain Reyes? 18 : No. Sorry. 19 : So when he came back from 20 suicide watch, right, was he placed by himself 21 or was he placed with another inmate? 22 : No, he was placed with the 23 other inmate that I can't remember exactly who 24 he was, but he had a bunkie when he first came 25 back. EFTA00062540  32 1 : Now, was there a different 2 reason why he was placed with the inmate other 3 than the fact that there was less space? Was 4 there a specific reason? 5 : I mean, truthfully, I don't 6 know. But it could be either or. That space 7 or because he was on suicide watch, you have to 8 have a bunkie, you know, but that's - I don't 9 know what the reason was, I just know he had a 10 bunkie. 11 : Do you recall after he came 12 back from suicide watch, was there any specific 13 instructions that came down from the Captain or 14 the Lieutenants regarding Epstein? 15 : No, not that I know of. 16 : Are you familiar with the 17 court list? 18 : Yes. 19 : What is it? 20 : So, in the morning or 21 sometimes the night before, it depends on when 22 they get it from the Marshals. The Marshals 23 send us a court list, it's printed out in R&D 24 and we hand it out to each unit and that's how 25 they know who got court in the morning or who EFTA00062541  33 1 got court in the afternoon. Sometimes, like I 2 said, they get it the night before, but that's 3 rarely. They most of the time get it like in 4 the morning sometime, you know, like overnight 5 maybe 4:00 in the morning you get it or 5:00 in 6 the morning or whatever. 7 : So it rarely comes in the 8 night before? 9 : Rarely. It has happened, 10 but rarely because there's so many changes. 11 You know how the courts are and everything so 12 the Marshals would rarely give us - but if it's 13 a slow day and maybe it's only a few inmates, 14 they get a list the night before, you know. 15 : And what's exactly listed on 16 that list? 17 : It says, whoever is getting 18 packed out like going to another institution or 19 air lift or whatever the case may be. Whoever 20 is going to court period. Basically just that 21 type of stuff, there's nothing else on there, 22 no. 23 : So you mentioned, "Packed 24 out," what's packed out? 25 : Packed out is if they're - EFTA00062542  34 1 it may be you're leaving in the next week to 2 another jail, so they're put on the list to 3 send him down with all his property so that it 4 can be inventoried and whatever he wants 5 shipped or whatever he's going to donate or 6 whatever the case may be and then he comes back 7 to the unit. So we call it packed out because 8 we'll tell the inmate, "You're being packed 9 out," so that's how he knows he's leaving soon 10 to pack his stuff and go to R&D. 11 : Have you ever heard the term 12 WAB? 13 : Yes. 14 : What's that mean? 15 : With all belongings. 16 : Is that the same thing as 17 packed out? 18 : Same, yeah, same thing. So, 19 when I say WAB, we say pack out, you know. 20 : Okay. 21 : But WAB, with all 22 belongings, yeah. 23 : What's air lift? 24 : Air lift, I'm not totally 25 sure on, but it's basically when the Marshals EFTA00062543  35 1 will come and pick someone up, and I'm assume - 2 and I don't know if it's - where they're going 3 but they're coming - they're going somewhere, 4 so. 5 : Okay. So the Marshals are 6 coming to pick them up. 7 : Yeah. 8 : And -. 9 : And maybe an Agent, you 10 know, depending on where they're going. But 11 : Who creates this court list? 12 Did you say? 13 : From my understanding, it 14 comes from the Marshals. 15 : From Marshals to R&D? 16 : Yes. 17 : And what does R&D do? They 18 just pass on the list or they create a document 19 of their own? 20 : I'm not sure, to be honest, 21 because I don't work in R&D like that. I mean, 22 I'm in and out of it, but as far as I know, 23 whenever we go to pick it up, it's just in R&D 24 ready already. So, I don't know, you know. I 25 know it comes from the Marshals because I've EFTA00062544  36 1 heard them say several times, like, "We're 2 waiting on the Marshals to send the court list 3 so we know who is going tomorrow." But as far 4 as if they alter it or do their own thing, that 5 I don't know. 6 : And as Internal, does R&D 7 provide a copy to you? 8 : Yeah. 9 : And what do you do with the 10 11 : On the elevator, we have 12 like a little box where our own paperwork or, 13 you know, we have a metal wand to wand people 14 down or whatnot. It's not big. So it would be 15 put there in our folder and when the next shift 16 comes on, they check the folder and they got 17 the court list also, you know, to 18 : How many copies of that court 19 list do you think is made? 20 : I mean, off the top of my 21 head, you figure each unit gets one, the 22 Lieutenant's office gets one, attorney 23 conference gets one. I don't -. 24 : Just pretty much passed out 25 to all -. EFTA00062545  37 1 : Yeah, yeah. Every area of 2 the building gets that and the call out list 3 and the SEP (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:59) roster and 4 all that. 5 : You said normally - normally, 6 it should come the night before but sometimes 7 it comes 4:00 in the morning. 8 : No, no, no. Once in a blue 9 it comes the night before, but normally it 10 comes like 3:00, between 3:00 and 5:00 in the 11 morning, you know, it will come. 12 : And a copy is given to every 13 unit. 14 : Yes. 15 : And is the list maintained in 16 a folder or computer somewhere? 17 : I know R&D has it in the 18 computer. But -- 19 : Okay. 20 -- what happens is, once 21 they leave and they're keyed in, then obviously 22 it's in the computer, but you don't key it in 23 until they leave the building otherwise it 24 causes confusion. If I just look at the list 25 and key these people out, but then one don't go EFTA00062546  38 1 to court or one gets canceled, now our count is 2 off because I put four inmates out of the 3 building and four didn't go to court. You know 4 what I'm saying? So, the minute they leave, 5 yes, they're keyed out and it's all on the 6 computer. 7 : Do you know if that document 8 is saved anywhere? 9 : (Indiscernible *00:26:50). 10 : That court list? Like, that 11 - you know, that court list that gets passed 12 out, do you think that 13 : The hard copy or the 14 : Hard copy, yeah. 15 : -- one on the computer? 16 Truthfully, I don't know. 17 : Okay. 18 : I would assume, you know, 19 the computer-wise, you could back track and 20 find it, but the hard copy, no, I don't, you 21 know. 22 : And -. 23 : Do you know how the 24 Marshals send it to R&D? Is it by email? 25 : No idea, to be honest. EFTA00062547  39 1 : No idea? 2 : Yeah. 3 : And when he asks about 4 the court list being in the computer, do you 5 know if the actual court list is in the 6 computer or they key the information off of the 7 court list into the computer? 8 : So, I know if we go to the 9 control center where we do all count and 10 assignments, that's called C&A, that's all 11 keyed in. But R&D, I believe they have it in 12 the computer. 13 : They have the actual 14 list? 15 : Yeah, I'm assuming -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- because they have more 18 info on that than we do. So I would assume 19 they have something more than us, whether it's 20 the exact list in the computer or just 21 something close to it, but I don't know, you 22 know, I couldn't answer that exactly because, 23 like I said, I don't work there and -- 24 : Yeah. Absolutely. 25 : -- my post, although it's EFTA00062548  40 1 mobile, I'm not, you know. 2 : Who would be a person to 3 ask that question to? 4 : Either someone from R&D or 5 someone that works what's called C&A and that's 6 Counts and Assignments. 7 : Okay. And is Counts and 8 Assignments in R&D? 9 : No, it's in the Control 10 Center. 11 : Oh, Control Center. 12 : Yeah. 13 : So someone in the Control 14 Center is actually assigned Counts and 15 Assignments? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. Good to know. Are 18 you able to by looking at that document, 19 determine who that person was on August 9th? 20 : August 9th, so it would be 21 Control #2 is usually C&A. So day shift was 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:30) and night 23 shift was 24 : Okay. Thank you. 25 : That's - yeah. No, that's EFTA00062549  41 1 the 10th. You said the 9th, right? 2 : Correct. 3 : The 9th, day shift was 4 (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:45) and night shift was 5 (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:48). 6 : Okay. When you said that 7 the Marshals don't send it usually until like 8 3:00 to potentially 5:00 a.m. Are you sure 9 they don't send it or is that when it's passed 10 out? 11 : Truthfully, there's no - I 12 don't know. You know what I'm saying? 13 : So what makes you believe 14 that the Marshals don't actually send it until 15 that time? 16 : I mean, because so much 17 changes, you know, you're, you know, a lawyer 18 - 19 : Okay. 20 : -- and so much changes with 21 the courts, you know, first thing in the 22 morning, what judge called out, what - so I'm 23 assuming they would wait as close as possible 24 to the time, you know, to get it out, I would 25 assume. EFTA00062550  42 1 : Okay. 2 : You know, I could be -. 3 : But that is an 4 assumption. 5 : I could be wrong. It's an 6 assumption. 7 : Right. 8 : I could - you know, there's 9 no way for me to know for sure, but you could 10 be right. Maybe it's coming in at 10:00 at 11 night and I don't even know because 12 : (Indiscernible 13 *00:29:38). 14 : -- they don't put it out 15 until 3:00 in the morning. You know, there's 16 no way for me to answer that. I don't know. 17 : Okay. 18 : I can only tell you when I'm 19 used to getting it and putting it out. 20 : Right. 21 : I know you didn't work - you 22 worked the evening watch on the 9th, right? 23 : Yes. 24 : Would you happen to know who 25 was working R&D during morning watch or day EFTA00062551  43 1 watch? 2 : So, there's no R&D morning 3 watch. 4 : What about day watch? 5 : Day watch, no, I wouldn't be 6 able to tell you. 7 : Okay. 8 : What about night watch? 9 : Well, there's no overnight 10 R&D, but -. 11 : They're not morning 12 watch, evening watch is what I'm saying. So 13 like the - you got your day watch and you got 14 your evening watch. 15 : It might not be listed on 16 there. 17 : I was just about to say -- 18 : Do you recall? 19