EFTA01138026.pdf

648 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072 BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G. CASSELL, Plaintiffs, VS. ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, Defendant. VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ VOLUME 5 Pages 648 through 781 Wednesday, January 13, 2016 9:04 a.m. - 11:59 a.m. Tripp Scott 110 Southeast 6th Street Fort Lauderdale, Florida Stenographically Reported By: Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR Realtime Systems Administrator EFTA01138026  649 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA 4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A. 2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard 5 West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626 BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ. 6 7 8 On behalf of Defendant: 9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A. Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard Miami, Florida 33156 11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ. 12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA, ESQ. (Via phone) 13 --and 14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP 131 Oliver Street 15 Boston, MA 02110 BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ. 16 17 --and-- 18 WILEY, REIN 17769 K Street NW 19 Washington, DC 20006 BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ. 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA01138027  650 1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 4 DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC 575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl. 5 New York, New York BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 7 On behalf of 8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200 9 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ. 10 11 12 ALSO PRESENT: 13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master 14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office 15 Marcy Martinez, Videographer 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA01138028  651 1 INDEX 2 3 Examination Page 4 5 VOLUME 5 (Pages 648 - 781) 6 7 Certificate of Oath 778 Certificate of Reporter 779 8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 780 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 781 9 10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS 11 12 No. Page 13 25 Transcript from Don Lemon Interview 689 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA01138029  652 1 Thereupon, the proceedings continued at 9:04 a.m. 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Are now on the video 3 record. This is the 13th day of January, 2016. 4 The time is 9:04 a.m. This is the videotaped 5 deposition of Alan Dershowitz in the matter of 6 Bradley Edwards and Paul Cassell versus Alan 7 Dershowitz. 8 My name is Marcy Martinez. I am the 9 videographer representing Above & Beyond 10 Reprographics. Will the attorneys please 11 announce their appearances for the record. 12 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. On behalf of the 13 plaintiff today Brad Edwards, Jack Scarola, 14 Brittany Henderson and Paul Cassell. 15 MR. SIMPSON: On behalf of the defendant 16 and the witness, Richard Simpson, and Thomas 17 Scott will be joining. He just walked in. 18 MS. McCAWLEY: On behalf of nonparty 19 , Sigrid McCawley and my 20 colleague Meredith Schultz from Boies, Schiller 21 & Flexner. 22 MR. INDYKE: On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein, 23 Darren Indyke. 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ed Pozzuoli as 25 the special master. EFTA01138030  653 1 MR. SIMPSON: Is there anyone else on the 2 phone? 3 MR. MAISEL: Yeah, this is Nicholas 4 Maisel. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your 6 right hand, please? 7 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony 8 you are about to give will be the truth, the 9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 10 THE WITNESS: I do. 11 MR. SCAROLA: Nick, would you announce the 12 capacity in which you're appearing, please. 13 MR. MAISEL: Special research assistant 14 for Alan Dershowitz. 15 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 16 MR. EDWARDS: Are we ready? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, in January of 2015, when 20 you made the statements that Paul Cassell and Brad 21 Edwards participated in the fabricating of the 22 allegations that were made against you, what 23 information or evidence did you have in your 24 possession at that time to support those statements? 25 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form as overly EFTA01138031  654 1 general. You may answer. 2 A. As soon as the allegations were made 3 against me, I received a series of phone calls and 4 people approached me at various events and they 5 warned me about the reputation of Bradley Edwards. 6 They told me that he had, in their view, 7 participated in a major fraud with a man named 8 Rothstein, that he should be in jail for the 9 Rothstein events. 10 I received a phone call saying that he had 11 fabricated evidence when he was a prosecutor and 12 that he had knowingly failed to investigate police 13 fabrication of evidence in a case. Generally was 14 warned about the terrible reputation that 15 Mr. Edwards had. 16 I also received phone calls telling me 17 that Mr. Cassell was a zealot, that he had used me 18 in class as a whipping -- as a kind of an object of 19 hate and painted me as a liberal supporter of the 20 exclusionary rule and opponent of the death penalty, 21 and that he had no concern for the truth when it 22 came to his zealotry on behalf of alleged victims. 23 The calls were just -- the people who told 24 me this were just -- there were so many of them that 25 it was amazing to me. EFTA01138032  655 1 And I knew, of course, that I had never 2 met -- had no contact with I knew 3 that she was lying. I read her deposition, and as 4 an experienced lawyer with 50 years of experience, 5 it was absolutely clear to me that no lay person 6 with her lack of education could have written that 7 deposition. a I sought the advice of friends and others 9 with experience who confirmed the view that that 10 affidavit clearly had to have been written by 11 lawyers and certainly drafted by lawyers; the level 12 of detail, the structure of the sentences, all of 13 which led me conclusively to the belief that the 14 lawyers had written this affidavit. 15 I suspected from the very beginning that 16 this was part of an extortion plot in order to 17 obtain money. I later learned many, many, many 18 facts. 19 MR. EDWARDS: I object and move to strike 20 as nonresponsive and that the question calls 21 for information in his possession in January of 22 2015. I would ask for a ruling on that. 23 A. I'm providing that, but I'm giving the 24 context. 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Denied. Move EFTA01138033  656 1 forward. 2 A. Okay. I knew that there was a financial 3 motivation here. I also knew that Cassell and 4 Edwards had lied when they said they were 5 representing in a pro bono basis. 6 I had been informed repeatedly that they 7 were in it for the money and that they expected to a earn a lot of money from representing her and others 9 in this case and that they pretended to be pro bono 10 lawyers when they were, in fact, money-grubbing, 11 money-hungry lawyers who had earned a very 12 substantial amount of money already on these cases 13 and were expecting to earn more money. 14 Let me think of what other information I 15 had. 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: At the time of 17 the question. 18 A. At the time of my statements, right. 19 It's just inconceivable to me that this 20 uneducated woman could have come up with this story 21 on her own. 22 I understood the motives of the lawyers, 23 and I was convinced, therefore, it was my opinion 24 based on my experience, in fact, that she could not 25 have done this by herself and that she had to have EFTA01138034  657 1 worked in coordination with her lawyers. 2 Her lawyers were also at that point 3 claiming that the story should be believed because 4 of who they were. Mr. Cassell, in my view, 5 unethically signed his pleading with the University 6 of Utah imprimatur, suggesting that he was a State 7 actor, suggesting that he acted on behalf of his 8 university, something I would never do and I've 9 stopped clients from doing. When I represent 10 people, I represent them on my own behalf, not on 11 behalf of any university. 12 The very fact that the Attorney General of 13 Utah was here yesterday indicates that he may very 14 well be a State actor and subject to the rules of 15 State action rather than individual action. 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That portion I 17 will strike. That sentence. 18 A. Sorry. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. I'm not finished. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there any 23 other information that you haven't touched 24 on -- 25 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to -- EFTA01138035  658 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: -- as of, what, 2 January? 3 MR. EDWARDS: January of 2015. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. 5 MR. SCAROLA: January 4. 6 MR. EDWARDS: January 4, 2015. 7 A. Okay, that's the question. But, of 8 course, I made a series of statements that continued 9 beyond January 4, and they always took into account 10 new developments and new information that I had. 11 I was also aware that Mr. Cassell was 12 promoting himself as a former federal judge and 13 using his status and imprimatur in a false effort to 14 try to add credibility to the story. 15 And I did not make -- this is very 16 important to this. I did not make a single call to 17 a single newspaper or single television station, to 18 my knowledge, or a single newspaper. I was 19 constantly responding. 20 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 21 A. Excuse me. In the last deposition -- 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no. 23 A. -- there was an interruption by 24 Mr. Scarola that I want to put on the record. 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no, no, EFTA01138036  659 1 no, no, no. No. Respond to the question that 2 was answered and go ahead because I haven't 3 heard any objection yet. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I'm objecting to all of this 5 as being nonresponsive to the question. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there 7 anything else that you would like to add to the 8 answer? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 A. When the newspapers called me, they all 11 asked me the following question -- 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Was this in 13 January? 14 A. This was in January. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. The question on the table is -- 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 18 second. 19 A. I'm going to tell you. 20 MR. EDWARDS: What information that 21 Mr. Dershowitz had in January 4, 2015, when he 22 made the statement that Paul Cassell and Brad 23 Edwards fabricated the allegations against him. 24 MR. SIMPSON: The question was about in 25 January of 2015. EFTA01138037  660 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's what it 2 was. That was the original question, which is 3 why he was afforded a tremendous amount of 4 latitude. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Understood. 6 A. And I got continuing information all 7 through January and amended my statements as 8 consistent with the information that I got. 9 The newspapers called me. They all said 10 to me, why would anybody make a false allegation if 11 he's a former Federal judge, if he's a professor, if 12 he's a distinguished trial lawyer? 13 Clearly the -- on the 4th of December, 14 talking about that day, that's the day on which 15 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. January. 18 A. January 4, 2015, that's the date on which 19 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC News asking them to 20 publicize his client's story and to -- and again 21 making it clear to ABC who he was and what he -- and 22 who he had been and what offices he had held. 23 And so it was clear to me at that point, 24 and through January it became clearer and clearer 25 that she could not have done this on her own, that EFTA01138038  661 1 she had to have sat with her lawyers and concocted 2 this story, added the kind of detail to the story 3 that would make a lie seem plausible and credible. 4 And I think that any reasonable lawyer reading that 5 affidavit would have come to exactly the same 6 conclusion that I came to. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, when you first made the 10 statement on January 4, 2015 that Mr. Cassell and 11 Brad Edwards had participated in the fabrication of 12 these allegations, did you have before you any 13 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it, 14 deposition of 15 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. It's 16 referring to a specific statement that has not 17 been identified for the witness. 18 A. Affidavit of What I had 19 was the lawyers' statements that were included in 20 the Complaint, which they then sought to publicize 21 all around the world and got more than a thousand 22 newspapers to cover the story, every television 23 station in the world, every radio station virtually 24 in the world, based on what they themselves had 25 written, actually gives me even a greater basis, EFTA01138039  662 1 because it wasn't at that point based on her 2 affidavit, it was based on what the lawyers had 3 said. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Can I have the 5 question read back. I'm lost as to what the 6 question is anymore. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask -- reread 8 the question. 9 COURT REPORTER: "Mr. Dershowitz, when you 10 first made the statement on January 4, 2015 11 that Mr. Cassell and Brad Edwards had 12 participated in the fabrication of these 13 allegations, did you have before you any 14 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it, 15 deposition of ." 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. Did you? 18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So that's the 19 question. Answer that question only. 20 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike everything 21 else he's said. 22 A. On January 4th, to my memory, I did not 23 refer to a deposition or to whatever other word you 24 used -- what was the word? 25 MR. SIMPSON: Affidavit. EFTA01138040  663 1 MR. EDWARDS: Affidavit. 2 A. -- if I hadn't seen it at that point. I 3 don't remember the exact day when her affidavit came 4 in. I referred obviously to the pleadings. That 5 was the allegation, the allegation in the pleadings. 6 So if I said that you and Cassell sat and 7 helped her make it up, it was based on -- at that 8 point in time, based on you and her, primarily you 9 and Cassell, because she didn't submit -- it wasn't 10 an affidavit at that point. 11 It was your words, you, that were accusing 12 me of these heinous crimes without any basis. So I 13 surely had a basis on January 4th of attributing it 14 to you because it was your signature on the 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a 16 second. So I understand, the question is what 17 did you have on January 4th -- 18 MR. EDWARDS: -- 2015 to support that 19 statement. 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Just answer that 21 question first and then you can explain, but -- 22 A. With due respect, Your Honor, I think the 23 question was, did you have the affidavit in front of 24 you. 25 EFTA01138041  664 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Right. Okay. Did you have the affidavit 3 or deposition of on that day? 4 A. To my recollection, I did not. I had only 5 your characterization of the accusation which you 6 were making against me. 7 Q. And in your experience as an attorney, 8 isn't it common knowledge that attorneys drafting 9 complaints or pleadings take the word of the client 10 to form the basis of that Complaint or pleading? 11 A. No, it's not common knowledge. It's 12 common knowledge that unethical lawyers of the kind 13 that your reputation told me you were help the 14 clients 15 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Move to strike as 16 nonresponsive. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I am going 18 to strike. Try -- try to answer the question. 19 A. But I think the generic answer is ethical 20 lawyers -- let me put it this way, ethical lawyers 21 should not elaborate on what a client tells them in 22 an affidavit. 23 In my experience, there's a continuum. 24 Many, many lawyers, when they see a statement by a 25 client, they'll say, no, no, no, no, could you EFTA01138042  665 1 please elaborate on that. You say you had sex with 2 him. Was it one time? Was it two times? Could it 3 have been six times? Could it have been on the 4 airplane? Could it have been -- et cetera. 5 So I think it's a continuum of the way 6 lawyers work with clients. The most ethical lawyers 7 don't change what a client says. They word for word 8 repeat what the client says. 9 The most unethical lawyers will put all of 10 their own thoughts, words, ideas if it strengthens 11 their position and strengthens their case. 12 From what I had been -- from the 13 information I knew at that time, I put you on the 14 extreme unethical end of the continuum. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That wasn't the 16 question, so 1 will strike the last sentence. 17 We need to get focused on answering the 18 question, so please try to do that. 19 A. Okay, I will do that. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. When you first made the statements that 22 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards fabricated the 23 allegations -- 24 A. Would you read me the statement that you 25 say I made on January 4th so I can understand what EFTA01138043  666 1 you're saying? 2 Q. Do you deny making the statement that Brad 3 Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations 4 against you? 5 A. I remember making a series of statements 6 over time. I do not remember what I said on 7 January 4th. In order to ask me what I had at the 8 time I made the statement, I need to know with 9 precision the exact statement you are referring to 10 and the exact date. I think that's a fair request. 11 Q. We'll get that for you. It would be 12 easier had you made less statements, but we'll sift 13 through them. 14 A. If would be easier if you had called 15 MR. SIMPSON: There's no question. Object 16 to the sidebar comments. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, let's -- 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. What are the names -- please list for me 20 all of the names of the people who told you that -- 21 in quotes -- Brad Edwards was -- participated in a 22 major fraud with Rothstein. Names of people. 23 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon 24 attorney-client, work product, common interest. 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, okay. EFTA01138044  667 1 MR. INDYKE: Instruct Alan not to answer 2 to the extent it would disclose communications 3 of who made those -- 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Objection noted. 5 You can answer it. 6 A. What framework are you giving me in terms 7 of time? 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: In January. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. You told me that before you made these 11 statements, one of the things that you had in your 12 possession was a series of phone calls, "a bunch of 13 people called me" -- 14 A. That is right. That's true. 15 Q. -- "and told me Brad Edwards participated 16 in major fraud with Rothstein." That's the first 17 question I want answered. What are the names of 18 those people? 19 A. A number of them who called me were ones 20 who volunteered -- 21 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a response to the 22 question. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. What are the names? 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop, stop, EFTA01138045  668 1 please, please, please. 2 A. I'm invoking the privilege, if you would 3 allow me, please. A number of those who called me 4 called me in tandem to volunteer to be my lawyer. 5 I'll give you an example. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, hang on. 7 A. I can't name this person because he called 8 to give me legal advice, and I -- he gave me that 9 information as part of his legal advice. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. I'm not asking if one of the lawyers who 12 represented you and you have an attorney-client 13 privilege with has shared with you some information 14 that they believe to be the case. 15 I'm asking if you are using as support for 16 your statement that certain people told you and you 17 relied upon this -- and the particular "this" at 18 this point is that Brad Edward participated in a 19 major fraud with Scott Rothstein -- I want to know 20 the names of those people that you are relying upon 21 to test veracity of that statement, please. Names 22 of people. 23 A. One of the names was of a person who I was 24 seeking legal representation from, and it was part 25 of my conversation with him regarding legal EFTA01138046  669 1 representation. 2 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a name. 3 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry, I object and I 4 ask -- 5 A. If I give you the name 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do think you 7 have to give the name. 8 A. Okay. The name of that person would be 9 David Markus. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. And he told me to check the docket -- 13 MR. SIMPSON: Just the question. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. When did David Markus call you to tell you 16 that he knew or believed that Brad Edwards 17 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 18 A. Within days. Within probably a day or 19 two. 20 Q. Did he tell you what it was that formed 21 the basis for that statement that he made to you 22 that you so relied upon? 23 A. I don't recall. 24 Q. Was it more than the fact that your 25 client, Jeffrey Epstein, had filed a lawsuit making EFTA01138047  670 1 those allegations? 2 A. I don't think he was aware that Jeffrey 3 Epstein had made an allegation of that kind. 4 Q. At the time when David Markus called you 5 to tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a 6 major fraud with Rothstein, did you already -- 7 A. That's not 8 Q. -- have or know that Scott Rothstein had 9 testified under oath about that specific subject 10 matter? 11 A. Well, I can't imagine that you're relying 12 on Scott Rothstein's credibility. 13 Q. I'm asking, did you know? 14 MR. SIMPSON: Just answer the question. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Yes or no? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Did you know? 18 A. I did not know. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. Did you know at that point in time that 21 the Complaint that was filed by your client, Jeffrey 22 Epstein, against Brad Edwards, making those exact 23 allegations, had been dismissed at the stage -- at 24 the point in time when David Markus was making these 25 statements to you that you so relied upon? EFTA01138048  1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction. 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's -- 4 MR. EDWARDS: Calls for a yes or no 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's only asked 6 if you aware that the case was dismissed at 7 that time. 8 A. I don't think I was. But a case being 9 dismissed does not mean the allegation isn't true. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understand, 11 but -- 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Okay. In addition to David Markus, can 14 you please complete this list of people that you 15 testified called you to tell you specifically that 16 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 17 Rothstein? 18 A. So, I spoke several times during that 19 period of time at various events. And people -- 20 lawyers came over to me and told me -- 21 Q. I'm not asking where. Who? What are the 22 names? 23 A. I can tell you one of them -- 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's trying to 25 be -- I would allow him to answer it. He's EFTA01138049  672 1 trying to be responsive to the question. 2 Please proceed. 3 A. One of them was a former president or 4 chairman or at least member of the Florida Bar 5 committee who warned me about you. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. Does he have a name? 8 A. I don't remember his name. I don't 9 remember his name, no. Of course he has a name, but 10 I don't remember his name. 11 Another was -- I mean -- just hard to 12 pinpoint names, but it was something that was 13 clearly in my mind that so many people were telling 14 me -- telling me to look into the case of Rothstein, 15 telling me that you were his protege. 16 Q. Okay. Is it true, then, that you have the 17 name of one person who you can identify told you 18 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 19 Rothstein? 20 A. I was also aware, of course, of the 21 Complaint that had been filed against you. And that 22 was one -- I mean, I can't comment on that because 23 of lawyer-client privilege. 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Listen to the 25 question, Professor. Go ahead. EFTA01138050  673 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Is it now your testimony that you can only 3 provide me with one name of one human being that 4 called you and told you Brad Edwards participated in 5 a major fraud with Rothstein? 6 A. I will try to think of others. 7 Probably -- I may have some notes of others. I will 8 call around and find out whether my memory is 9 correct or not. 10 MR. SIMPSON: Professor -- 11 A. But I don't want to mention names without 12 being sure. 13 MR. SIMPSON: Just do you recall, as you 14 sit here, the names? 15 A. And right now, I don't recall names, other 16 than a general discussion with my lawyers. And in 17 the general discussion with my lawyers -- and I 18 don't want to get into it -- 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then don't do 20 it. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Are you relying upon the statements from 23 your lawyers to support this allegation that the 24 basis of your statement that Brad Edwards 25 participated in the fabrication of the allegations EFTA01138051  6/4 1 against you was a list of people told you 2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 3 Rothstein; and, if so, I want to know the names of 4 those lawyers that you are using to support that 5 allegation? 6 MR. SIMPSON: Well, we have asserted 7 privilege as to communications with those who 8 represented you. Please don't disclose that. 9 MR. SCAROLA: Respectfully -- pardon me -- 10 the witness is the possessor of that privilege. 11 He cannot make a statement disclosing the 12 content of the communications that he is 13 relying on and then he himself assert a 14 privilege to refuse to provide further 15 information with regard to the statement that 16 he has made. We would request a ruling on the 17 record as to whether there has already been a 18 waiver. 19 A. What I said, of course, was that 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me. Hang 21 on a second. 22 MR. SCAROLA: We're requesting a ruling on 23 the record as to whether there has been a 24 waiver as a consequence of what has already 25 been stated. EFTA01138052  675 1 MR. SIMPSON: He did not testify that 2 he -- we went through long questions and 3 answers in response to Mr. Edwards' questions. 4 He did not say he was relying on what his 5 lawyers told him in this case. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that 7 there is -- let me say this: I think the 8 question was from Mr. Edwards whether he relied 9 on statements from his lawyers. I do think 10 that you have to answer that question. 11 A. I would say that the statements from my 12 lawyers played a small role. The larger role 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. I want to know about that small role. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 16 second. So now proceed. 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. Sure. I would like to know whose 19 statements it was that played a small role in your 20 belief that Brad Edwards fabricated cases based on 21 the statements that they made to you that 22 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 23 Rothstein. What are the name of those individuals? 24 A. It's a complicated question here. So 25 there are three issues that I understand. One, what EFTA01138053  676 1 was the basis for my belief that you had fabricated 2 along with Mr. Cassell -- 3 Q. No, I'm asking for names of human beings. 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, let me stop 5 you. My understanding of your testimony was 6 that whatever you received -- whatever 7 information you received from your lawyers 8 played a small role. That's what you testified 9 to. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right. 11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Correctly, 12 Mr. Edwards then followed up on that question 13 and said, let's go into that small role. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So now . . . 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. What are the names of those people that 18 gave you this information that played a small role 19 in -- 20 A. In what? 21 Q. in your belief that Brad Edwards had 22 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein which 23 somehow furthered your belief that Brad Edwards and 24 Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations against you? 25 So I'm asking for names of the people. EFTA01138054  677 1 A. So my best recollection, and it's now over 2 a year, is that that was a subject of conversation 3 with David Markus. It was also the subject of 4 conversation with -- 5 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear 6 that. If he's talking about conversations 7 MR. EDWARDS: He said Davis Markus. 8 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry. I couldn't 9 hear. 10 A. Another lawyer -- other people sent me 11 newspaper clippings. 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no. 13 A. Lawyer. Okay. The other lawyer who told 14 me about that was a lawyer named David Efron. 15 MR. SCAROLA: First of all, make sure the 16 list is complete, and then you want to know 17 every one. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Is that it? David Markus, David Efron? 20 A. Those are the two I remember offhand. 21 Plus, as I said, when I spoke I spoke 22 at several events in January -- 23 Q. Right now -- 24 A. -- and lawyers came -- people 25 lawyers -- EFTA01138055  678 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. Let me get to the next question. 4 A. Yes. 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me ask the 6 witness, the question is limited to -- 7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, the lawyers who played 8 a small role. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: The small role 10 around the lawyers, and I think the followup 11 question was, you've mentioned a second lawyer, 12 is there anybody else on that list? 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Two lawyers, yes. The lawyers who came 16 over to me at the events that I spoke at. 17 Q. What are their names? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. How do you know that they're lawyers? 20 A. Because it was a lawyers' event. And they 21 were trial lawyers. This was all trial lawyers at 22 the event. Florida trial lawyers. 23 Q. You don't have the names of any of them; 24 is that right? 25 A. I can describe one of them as somebody who EFTA01138056  679 1 came over to me and told me -- he may have given me 2 a card, which I conceivably may have at home, told 3 me that he was a former official of the Florida Bar 4 and was outraged at what had happened and told me to 5 please look into your background and then told me 6 about your background. 7 Q. Dade Markus, is he a former student of 8 yours? 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 Q. Did he have anything to do with the 11 investigation into the -- Scott Rothstein or any of 12 that? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. David Efron, did he have any inside 15 personal information into who was or who was not 16 culpable in any aspect of the fraud with Scott 17 Rothstein? 18 A. I don't know. 19 MR. SCAROLA: You want to know exactly 20 what they said. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Before we go to the next statement that 23 apparently formed your basis for believing that 24 Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the 25 allegations against you, can you tell me exactly EFTA01138057  680 1 word for word as you remember it what David Markus 2 and then what David Efron told you -- 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's start with 4 the first one. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. -- what David Markus told you about the 7 participation of Brad Edwards in a fraud with 8 Rothstein? 9 MR. SIMPSON: We assert privilege to the 10 extent that it's someone who he was getting 11 legal advice from. 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to 13 allow the question. You can answer over 14 objection. 15 A. All I can tell you is what the total 16 information I had at that point. I can't now, as I 17 sit here, separate out what Markus said, what Efron 18 said, what the lawyers who I met at the events said. 19 I can give you a totality of what the conclusion was 20 that was reached. Each of them contributed 21 something. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Where were you when you received this 24 communication from David Markus about his 25 understanding or belief that Brad Edwards EFTA01138058  681 1 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 2 A. In my apartment, I suspect. 3 Q. Do you remember this? 4 A. I remember being in my apartment when the 5 story broke and getting call after call after call 6 from lawyers. 7 Q. Was this a telephone call with David 8 Markus -- 9 A. Probably. 10 Q. -- or an in-person meeting? 11 A. It was -- well, I had both. I had both 12 with him. I had a telephone call and then we had a 13 meeting. 14 Q. And in this, did he describe to you what 15 support he had for this statement that he was making 16 to you regarding the involvement of Brad Edwards in 17 a major fraud with Rothstein? 18 MR. SCOTT: Objection, work product on 19 this whole line of questioning. He has the 20 name. If we're going to go beyond this, we 21 need a judicial ruling from the judge and you. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, I'm going 23 to allow the witness to answer it at this point 24 and overrule the objection without prejudice. 25 A. What is the question again? EFTA01138059  682 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, go back to 2 the question. 3 COURT REPORTER: "And in this, did he 4 describe to you what support he had for this 5 statement that he was making to you regarding 6 the involvement of Brad Edwards in a major 7 fraud with Rothstein?" 8 A. I'm sure he told me some information 9 involving his state of knowledge, but I can't 10 separate out now what different people told me. All 11 I remember is the totality of the conclusion that I 12 reached based on what they told me. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. What specifically did he tell you, if you 15 remember? 16 MR. SCOTT: Same objection standing. I 17 just wanted to make sure we have a standing 18 objection. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll give you a 20 standing objection. I understand that piece. 21 If you don't remember, you don't remember or if 22 you can't describe it, rather than going 23 through again the generalities, so try to 24 answer his specific question. 25 A. Sure. Okay. The answer is I do remember EFTA01138060  683 1 the generalities, but I don't remember the 2 particulars of that. I would be happy to try to 3 refresh my recollection. 4 MR. SCAROLA: We're going to take a short 5 break. 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The 7 time is 9:38 a.m. 8 (Recess was held from 9:38 a.m. until 9:45 a.m.) 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 10 The time is 9:45 a.m. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. Did David Markus say Brad Edwards 13 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 14 MR. SCOTT: Objection, work product and 15 privileged. 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll overrule 17 the objection. 18 MR. SCOTT: I have a question. Are we 19 taking the position that he has to answer the 20 question now and pending an appeal to the 21 judge? Is that what we're doing? 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Or -- I will 23 reserve your right -- 24 MR. SCOTT: Because you reserved on all 25 their stuff yesterday. EFTA01138061  684 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I will reserve 2 on that, but I want him to answer the question 3 at this point. I believe that at this point, 4 given the inquiry and given the witness's 5 answers previously, that they've opened the 6 door, at least to this extent. But I will 7 reserve, but I want him to answer. 8 A. I will. I do not recall precisely what 9 David Markus or David Efron said. I do recall that 10 they -- to the best of my recollection, that they 11 both contributed to my general sense of what your 12 reputation was. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. I want to only stick with David Markus and 15 then we'll move on to David Efron. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. All right. Did David Markus say anything 18 along the lines of, close to, Brad Edwards 19 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 20 MR. SCOTT: Same objection. 21 A. My best recollection is that he said 22 something along those lines. He certainly said 23 something that led me to that conclusion. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Did he tell you to look into a court file EFTA01138062  685 1 or did he tell you Brad Edwards participated in a 2 major fraud with Rothstein? 3 MR. SIMPSON: We have a continuing 4 objection on this, and also object to the form 5 of that one. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yeah, well, the 7 form I'm not going to rule on, but the form is 8 awkward, at best. 9 MR. SIMPSON: We just want in the record 10 we have a continuing objection. 11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. I've heard two statements. One is that 14 David Markus said to look into a court file. And 15 the other I understood you to say is, David Markus 16 told me Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud 17 with Rothstein, which is what gave the support for 18 the statement that I ultimately made about 19 Brad Edwards participating in the fabrication of 20 these allegations. 21 So I'm trying to understand, did David 22 Markus tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a 23 major fraud with Rothstein? 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You have a 25 continuing objection, but you can answer. EFTA01138063  686 1 A. To the best of my recollection, it's more 2 than a year ago now, he told me facts that led me to 3 conclude that you had participated in a major fraud. 4 He told me, for example, that what 5 Brad Edwards -- that what Rothstein was selling were 6 fake Edwards cases made up by people who didn't 7 exist. 8 He told me -- I think it was he who told 9 me, but I can't be sure, that you were a protege, 10 that you had offices that were very close to each 11 o