EFTA00061061.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 4, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00061061  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00061062  3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I'm a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. This interview with Federal 7 Bureau of Prisons employee is 8 being conducted as part of an official U.S. 9 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 10 General investigation. Today's date is August 11 4, 2021, and the time is 9:24 a.m. This 12 interview is being conducted at the 13 Metropolitan Correctional Center, known as the 14 MCC, located in New York, New York. Also 15 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 16 Do you want to show him your credentials? 17 MR. : Thank you. 18 MR. : This interview will be 19 recorded by me, SSA . Could 20 everyone please identify themselves for the 21 record and spell your last name? To start, 22 again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior Special Agent 23 24 MR. : I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent 25 EFTA00061063  4 1 MR. : And you, sir? 2 MR. : I am Correctional Counselor 3 4 MR. : Correctional Counselor? 5 MR. : Yes, sir. 6 MR. : And what did you say 7 that, what level was that? Nine? 8 MR. : GS-9. 9 MR. : GS-9. Great. Thank you, 10 sir. This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation 11 into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and 12 the surrounding circumstances, and you are 13 being asked to voluntarily provide answers to 14 our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. We have 18 a form, it's the DOJ/OIG form 3-226/2. It's 19 the United States Department of Justice, Office 20 of the Inspector General, Warnings and 21 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 22 Information on a Voluntary Basis. "You are 23 being asked to provide information as part of 24 an investigation being conducted by the Office 25 of the Inspector General. This investigation EFTA00061064  5 1 is being conducted, pursuant to the Inspector 2 General Act of 1978, as amended. This 3 investigation pertains to job performance 4 failure and security failure. This is a 5 voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not 6 have to answer questions. No disciplinary 7 action will be taken against you if you choose 8 not to answer questions. Any statement you 9 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 10 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 11 proceedings, or both." 12 And there's a waiver section. It says, "I 13 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 14 above, and I am willing to make a statement and 15 answer questions. No promises or threats have 16 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 17 any kind has been used against me." If you 18 want to take a second to look at that, if you 19 agree with it, you can, there's an employee 20 signature where you would sign, and then you 21 would print your name under here, where it says 22 employee's name. 23 Thank you, sir, for signing. Do you 24 understand the form? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00061065  6 1 MR. : Thank you. All right. 2 The date and time, Wednesday, August -- 3 MR. : Fourth. 4 MR. : -- 4, 2021, and the time 5 is 9:26 a.m. now. So, 8/4/21, at 9:26 a.m. 6 Place: MCC, New York. I am signing as the top 7 line. Once again, this is 8 and printing below. Special Agent can 9 you just sign as a witness and then put your 10 name below? Thank you. 11 MR. : This is Agent . I'm 12 signing as a witness and printing my name. 13 MR. : All right. So, before we 14 start the interview, I would like to place you 15 under oath. Mr. , can you please raise 16 your right hand? Do you swear to tell the 17 truth and nothing but the truth during this 18 interview? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Thank you, sir. What is 21 your date of birth? 22 MR. : February 26, 1975. 23 MR. : And your SSN? 24 MR. : 055-60-8216. 25 MR. : Thank you. And your EFTA00061066  7 1 current home address? 2 MR. : 31 Wansor Avenue, Sayville, 3 New York, 11709. 4 MR. : And your current 5 cellphone number? 6 MR. -: 7 MR. : And what is your current 8 position again? 9 MR. : Correctional Counselor. 10 MR. : And how long have you 11 been in that position? 12 MR. : Since February 2020. 13 MR. : Okay. And what were you 14 prior to that? 15 MR. : A Lieutenant. 16 MR. : Great. Were you 17 previously interviewed under this 18 investigation? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : All right. Awesome. I'm 21 just going to review the report that was 22 generated, based upon your interview. I'm 23 going to go kind of, a little slower through 24 it, so that you can actually grasp and 25 understand what it is that they wrote. I just EFTA00061067  8 1 want to make sure that everything that they 2 wrote is accurate. 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : And just stop me if 5 anything is not accurate. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : All right. It says, "The 8 following interview was conducted by Assistant 9 United States Attorney, AUSA, 10 and Office of the 11 Inspector General, Special Agent 12 . Also present for the interview was 13 Federal Bureau of Investigation Special Agent 14 15 ," and it says your date 16 of birth, "was interviewed at the United States 17 Attorney's Office, 1 St. Andrew Plaza, New 18 York, New York. After being advised of the 19 nature of the interview, and the identities of 20 the interviewing AUSA and Special Agents, 21 provided the following information." %•% 22 stated he worked for the Bureau 23 of Prisons, BOP, since approximately January 24 15, 2001." 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00061068  9 1 MR. : "Prior to employment with 2 the BOP, worked for the Building and 3 Maintenance Union, the Marine Corps Reserve, 4 and the New York Police Department Auxiliary." 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. stated he joined 7 the BOP as a Correctional Officer and was 8 promoted to Lieutenant in October 2015." 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : "He spent one year at the 11 Federal Correctional Institution, Fort Dix, 12 when he first joined the BOP and had spent the 13 remainder of his tenure at the Metropolitan 14 Correctional Center." 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. "Captain 17 was his supervisor." 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Who is your supervisor 20 now? 21 MR. : Right now, it's 22 Bullock. (Phonetic Sp. *00:06:15) He's my Unit 23 Manager. 24 MR. : Okay. stated a 25 GS-9 Lieutenant's responsibilities depend EFTA00061069  10 1 largely on which area of the prison he or she 2 was assigned to, which rotated on a quarterly 3 basis." 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : "Those duties include 6 operations, activities, solitary housing, 7 special investigations, and administration, as 8 well as possible collateral duties, such as 9 emergency protection." 10 MR. Emergency preparedness. 11 Same thing. 12 MR. : Okay. Preparedness? 13 MR. : It would be the EPO is what 14 the title was. 15 MR. : Sure. I understand. 16 " stated he was assigned as the 17 Activities Lieutenant at the time of the 18 interview, and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 19 p.m. shift." 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : And then on the daily 22 schedule, it actually listed 4 to 12, correct? 23 You just came in two hours early? 24 MR. : Well, what lieutenants were 25 doing, we always did two hour reliefs for each EFTA00061070  11 1 other. 2 MR. : Okay. But if I was to 3 actually look at that daily schedule -- 4 MR. : I believe it would show 4 to 5 12, or actually, if it was activities, 6 Activities Lieutenants at that time were 6 to 2 7 and 2 to 10. Operations Lieutenants were on 8 the 8 to 4, 4 to 12, 12 to 8 rotation. 9 MR. : Okay. I see what you're 10 saying. So, there's no actual two hour change, 11 when you're looking at an Activities 12 Lieutenant? 13 MR. : Yeah, no. 14 MR. : It is what the actual 15 daily assigned roster said? 16 MR. : It is what the time, yeah. 17 I forgot what the, it's been a while. I forgot 18 the shift number. 19 MR. : Absolutely. But, so, the 20 Activities and the Ops Lieutenant were working 21 the same hours? 22 MR. : They will, they piggyback, 23 but let's say, like, the 2 p.m. Activities 24 Lieutenant, I would be here on the, still under 25 the Day Watch Lieutenant, and then the Evening EFTA00061071  12 1 Watch Lieutenant would roll in, if they're 2 going by 8 to 4. Cause I, as an Evening Watch 3 Activities Lieutenant, I worked 2 p.m. to 10 4 p.m. But if, like, if the Day Watch Lieutenant 5 was still there 8 to 4, I would be working two 6 hours with him or her. 7 MR. : Yeah, so, I guess what 8 I'm asking is, I thought at this time, in 9 August of 2019, they were allowing the Ops 10 Lieutenants to come in two -- 11 MR. : We were. We were doing two 12 hour reliefs for each other. 13 MR. : So, you were actually 14 working the same hours? 15 MR. : Same hours. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Yes, sir. 18 MR. : Great. So, you were, 19 both Ops and Activities were 2 to 10 at the 20 time? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Perfect. 23 MR. : Well, I think that's what I 24 was assigned to. I can't recall 100%. 25 MR. : Sure. And these are EFTA00061072  13 1 MR. : When I got interviewed. 2 MR. : Sure. So, I'm going to 3 give you, right now, the daily assignment 4 rosters for both Friday, August 9, 2019, and 5 Saturday, August 10, 2019. 6 MR. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : It's just so that, if it 8 helps you refresh your memory, cause we're 9 talking about so long ago. All right. 10 stated he was assigned as the 11 Activities Lieutenant at the time of the 12 interview and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 13 p.m. shift. His regular days off were Mondays 14 and Tuesdays. He would, on occasion, work 15 overtime hours or switch shifts with other 16 officers." 17 MR. : Wait, I'm sorry. Can you 18 read that again? I apologize. 19 MR. : Absolutely. Okay. So, 20 after the 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift, which we 21 just discussed. 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : It says, "His regular 24 days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, 25 on occasion, work overtime hours or switch EFTA00061073  14 1 shifts with other officers." 2 MR. : We're not officers. We're 3 lieutenants. 4 MR. : That's probably what they 5 (Indiscernible *00:09:11). 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, switched shifts with 8 other lieutenants, to be able to fill in for 9 the Activities Lieutenant, is what you're 10 saying? 11 MR. : Yeah. Or, a lot of the 12 times, we got mandated to stay. 13 MR. : Right. But only 14 lieutenants could actually fill those 15 positions, is what you're saying? 16 MR. : Yeah. Only, well, a 17 lieutenant, only a lieutenant can fill an 18 Operations Lieutenant. 19 MR. : Correct. 20 MR. : You could have a GS-8 21 Officer cover as an Activities Lieutenant. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Cause, like, that Friday 24 evening, the night before, I was Operations and 25 I had an 8 as my Activities Lieutenant. I had EFTA00061074  15 1 an officer acting as Activities. 2 MR. : Okay. So, then, people 3 could switch, that were officers? 4 MR. : No. Only, a lieutenant 5 can't switch with an officer to fill a post. 6 They can backfill, if there's, a lieutenant 7 calls in sick. If a lieutenant is not there. 8 MR. : Okay. So you can't 9 MR. : They can use a GS -- 10 MR. : -- you can't ask an 8, 11 say, hey, can you switch with me? It's only if 12 -- 13 MR. : No. Like, as an Activities 14 Lieutenant, I would have to call in sick to the 15 Captain. If I wanted a shift off, I could 16 switch with another officer. I can't 17 necessarily switch with an 8 officer. 18 MR. : Okay. And looking at 19 this daily assignment roster, I'm assuming you 20 noticed that you were actually Ops Lieutenant? 21 MR. : Yes. I was Evening Watch 22 Operations the night before. 23 MR. : On August 9th? And then 24 was actually an 8, Acting Lieutenant? 25 MR. : Yeah, she was a GS-8 EFTA00061075  16 1 officer. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : She was my Activities that 4 night. 5 MR. : I got you. All right. 6 "As there were no Activity Lieutenants assigned 7 during the overnight hours, he had no relief 8 officers." I don't know why they would have 9 wrote that sentence in there. So, I'm going to 10 read this paragraph again, just to help clarify 11 this. ` stated he was assigned as the 12 Activities Lieutenant at the time of the 13 interview and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 14 p.m. shift." 15 Again, on Friday, August 9, you were 16 actually the Ops Lieutenant and was the 17 Activities Lieutenant. It says, "His regular 18 days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, 19 on occasion, work overtime hours or switch 20 shifts with other lieutenants." And in this 21 case, again, you explained 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- that you can't 24 actually switch with lieutenants, only if you 25 get bumped and that position is filled, can an EFTA00061076  17 1 8 officer -- 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And then it says, "As 4 there were no Activity Lieutenants assigned 5 during the overnight hours, he had no relief 6 officers." You weren't doing overnight? 7 MR. : No. I got relieved and went 8 home that evening. 9 MR. : I'm not exactly, were you 10 doing overtime shifts for the morning watch? 11 Is that why they would have wrote that? 12 MR. : It could possibly be. I 13 mean, we worked overtime shifts constantly. At 14 one point in time, we were short-staffed 15 lieutenants like you wouldn't believe. We were 16 filling this building with five or six 17 lieutenants, we were running the whole 18 building. That's one of the reasons why I 19 became a counselor. I was never home. 20 MR. : Okay. So that is a 21 little confusing. What it's trying to say, 22 though, is that if you're the Ops Lieutenant, 23 on the morning watch, there is no Activities 24 Lieutenant? 25 MR. : No. Yeah, that, no. EFTA00061077  18 1 There's only an Activities Lieutenant until 10 2 p.m. 3 MR. : Right. stated 4 the responsibilities of an Activities 5 Lieutenant include making rounds and placing 6 inmates in Special Housing. During rounds, 7 they ensure officers are properly carrying out 8 their job responsibilities and give the inmates 9 the opportunity to address with them any 10 concerns. stated he often attempted to 11 walk all the tiers, based on time." 12 So, on this, we have heard different 13 things from different people. As an Ops 14 Lieutenant, or an Activities Lieutenant, are 15 you required to go into the SHU, and I'm 16 talking specifically at this time, so August 17 9th, August 10th of 2019. Was a lieutenant, or a 18 SHU lieutenant, was a lieutenant responsible to 19 go to the SHU and walk the tiers and do a round 20 with the inmates? 21 MR. : With the inmates? 22 MR. : Yeah. So -- 23 MR. : Well, a lieutenant is 24 supposed to, is mandatory, supposed to make 25 rounds. EFTA00061078  19 1 MR. : So what is the definition 2 of a lieutenant round? 3 MR. : A lieutenant round? Well, 4 in the Special Housing or general pop? 5 MR. : Let's talk just Special 6 Housing. 7 MR. : Okay. Special Housing, one, 8 the lieutenant walks through the 27 door, 9 that's the outer door of the SHU. Sign in, in 10 the log book. Go in, go, sit down on the 11 computer, login, do the True Scope rounds. Got 12 to enter your rounds in SHU. Go up to 10 13 South. Make the rounds up there. Same thing. 14 Enter the information in True Scope. 15 MR. : So, when you go into 9 16 South, though, and you're entering in that you 17 conducted a round, what does the round entail? 18 MR. : Well, making sure that the 19 officers are doing their job. And like I said, 20 if time permits, if you can, you know, do it, 21 go down the range. Go one range, two ranges, 22 three ranges. 23 MR. : And that's where, so, 24 this is where we have gotten, some people are 25 saying they had to do, in order to conduct an EFTA00061079  20 1 actual round, you have to actually walk the 2 tiers. Do you know that to be the case? 3 MR. : Well, yeah. Cause the 4 officer has to let you down range. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : The officer has the grill 7 key. Nobody could just go down range in SHU. 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : So, the officer would have 10 to open the grill. You go down range and then 11 have to sign the rounds sheet at the end of 12 each range. 13 MR. : And I think I understand 14 what you're saying. You're saying sometimes, 15 there just wasn't time to do it 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : -- but does that actually 18 constitute a round, actually walking down the 19 range for a lieutenant? 20 MR. : Well, not so much, the 21 officers are supposed to be making the 30 22 minute rounds. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. : The lieutenant just has to 25 make sure that that that, he or she has to go EFTA00061080  21 1 in that unit and make sure that the officers 2 are doing their rounds. Check the rounds 3 sheets or the log book, log into True Scope, 4 and, you know, make, basically, is that 5 lieutenant is confirming that staff are doing 6 their job. 7 MR. : So, the lieutenant didn't 8 actually have to walk the tiers? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : And the ranges? All 13 right. So, that was your understanding? So 14 when you're assigning the actual round that you 15 conducted, it's to say that you basically did a 16 round with your officers, to ensure they were 17 doing their job? 18 MR. : Their job, and you go into 19 the 10 South and do the same. 20 MR. : Okay. But not that 21 you're actually conducting a round? 22 MR. : Huh-uh. 23 MR. : Like, as far as 24 conducting a round with inmates? 25 MR. : No. No, that's, the whole EFTA00061081  22 1 purpose behind the 30 minute log book. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : The 30 minute round sheets. 4 MR. : Okay. stated on 5 weekdays, the prison takes a count at 4 p.m. 6 The Activities and Operations Lieutenant take a 7 verbal count by speaking with each unit and 8 match that number with the count slip from 9 Internal. If correct, they clear the 10 institution count. They cannot clear a count 11 until they receive a good verbal count from 12 every unit. He was not aware of any instances 13 in which the count was cleared without speaking 14 with every unit." 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : So that's correct, 17 though? 18 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 19 MR. : stated he would 20 attempt to watch the camera monitors as the 21 corrections officers performed the count to 22 ensure officers were properly counting. He 23 could not monitor at all times, due to the 24 amount of activity in the Control Room." 25 MR. : Well, it depends. During EFTA00061082  23 1 the count, my job is mainly taking the count. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : You know, I could look up at 4 the cameras, you know, but you have a lot of 5 movement going around in Control. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MR. : You know, throwing keys. 8 If, let's, and there's been many times where we 9 were so short-staffed, we had one officer in 10 Control. 11 MR. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : So, while I'm taking the 13 count, I'm also doing C . I'm helping him 14 throw keys. You know, but as far as clearing 15 the count, yes. You cannot clear the count 16 until you get a verbal, verbal, good verbal 17 count from the Unit Officer, cause we have the 18 PP1, the El, in front of us with the actual 19 accurate count, as per Sentry. So we have to 20 compare those numbers. You write it down. We 21 compare it. So, you cross it off on the Sentry 22 paperwork, okay, 7, I'll call in a good count. 23 MR. : But, as far as, like, the 24 4 p.m. count, the Activities or Ops Lieutenant 25 has to actually be present in Control to do EFTA00061083  24 1 that? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And about how many people 4 are present in Control when that count is being 5 conducted? 6 MR. : If we're fully staffed, 7 we'll have two officers and the lieutenant in 8 the Control Center. 9 MR. : Okay. Okay. So it's 10 three people in there? 11 MR. : Yeah. It's the Control Room 12 Officer, the C&A Officer, and it would be the 13 lieutenant, Activities or Ops. 14 MR. : What does C&A stand for? 15 MR. : Counts, truth be told, I 16 have a total brain (Indiscernible *00:17:03). 17 Count -- 18 MR. : So, it's like Control 19 Number 1, Control Number 2 -- 20 MR. : Two, yeah. 21 MR. : -- and you're saying 22 Control Number 2 is -- 23 MR. : Control Number 2 is C&A. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Old school, it used to be EFTA00061084  25 1 called C&A. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : I know it's Counts and 4 Accountability, I think is what the acronym 5 was. 6 MR. : Okay. So that's the 7 person who actually, like, receives the counts 8 from people? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Is that what you're 11 saying? 12 MR. : C&A is the one that does all 13 the Sentry work for all the movement, you know, 14 to make sure the roster is accurate, the 15 counts, or the unit base counts and unit counts 16 are accurate. 17 MR. : That's Control Number 2? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So, in this case, if 20 you're looking at August, Friday, August 9, 21 2019, would that Control Officer Number 2, can 22 you tell me who that would have been? 23 MR. : (Phonetic Sp. 24 *00:17:49) for the 6 to 2 shift, and 25 (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:51) for the 2 to EFTA00061085  26 1 10. 2 MR. : So, as far as the 4 p.m. 3 count, that would not have been 4 MR. : Well, would have been 5 in Control, cause he would have been the 6 Control 1 Officer. 7 MR. : Oh, I thought it was 8 Control 2 for him. 9 MR. : Control, no, Control 1, 10 is Control 1 and is Control 2. 11 MR. : Oh, okay. So, okay. So, 12 what would Control l's typical responsibilities 13 have been? 14 MR. : At 4:00, the same thing. At 15 4:00, people are leaving, so that person would 16 be over at the window, throwing keys. We call 17 it throwing keys. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : It's just, it's an 20 expression. He would be taking the keys, 21 radios, OC and stuff like that from the 22 departing staff, putting it back on the board, 23 giving them their chits and receiving chits for 24 equipment for the oncoming staff. 25 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, EFTA00061086  27 1 it should have been, at least at 4 p.m., the 2 person that would be signing the documents and 3 taking the count should have been this 4 and not 5 MR. : With the lieutenant. 6 MR. : With the lieutenant. 7 Okay. And after we're done with this, we'll 8 just go over some of the counts, just to -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : But we'll move on, just 11 to make sure we can keep moving on this. I'm 12 just going to read it over to, I can't remember 13 exactly where I left off. 14 MR. : Fourth paragraph. 15 MR. : Third paragraph? 16 MR. : Fourth. stated he 17 was normally relieved (Indiscernible *00:19:24) 18 before 10 p.m. 19 MR. : I'm just going to read 20 this last paragraph over. stated he 21 would attempt to watch the camera monitors as 22 the corrections officers performed the count to 23 ensure officers were properly counting. He 24 could not monitor at all times, due to the 25 amount of activity in the Control Room." EFTA00061087  28 1 Again, you said that you might glance up, but 2 you're not actually, like 3 MR. : Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't 4 staring. 5 MR. : Sure. Absolutely. 6 MR. : You know? I would be 7 answering the phones, writing down the actual 8 count -- 9 MR. : Totally. 10 MR. : -- you know, the crossing 11 off, and, you know, making the, especially if I 12 had seen that, like, if a count was being 13 delayed, I would be, like, what's the problem? 14 And I would look. You know. 15 MR. : I got you. So, you're 16 not, like, yeah, making sure they're doing 17 their job -- 18 MR. : It's not, I'm not glued to 19 the camera. 20 MR. : -- cause you have your 21 own job to be doing, is what you're saying? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. stated he 24 would normally relieve, be relieved before 10 25 P•m•• prior to evening count. He had heard of EFTA00061088  29 1 an instance where the count was not properly 2 completed, but he had, but it had been some 3 time in the past." So, if you're that 2 to 10 4 shift, do you do the 4, the relieving shift 5 would typically do the 10 p.m., is what you're 6 saying? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. Do you ever do the 9 10 p.m.? 10 MR. : On nights that I was coming 11 in for the overnight. 12 MR. : But, I mean, as the 2 to 13 10 shift, do you ever do the 10 p.m.? 14 MR. : I probably have, but I can't 15 even recall when the last time I was. 16 MR. : Yeah, yeah. It's 17 typically that relieving officer's duty, 18 though? 19 MR. : Yeah. The relieving 20 lieutenant. 21 MR. : Lieutenant, right. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : And then it says, "He had 24 heard of an instance where the count was not 25 properly completed, but it had been some time EFTA00061089  30 1 in the past." Any information on that? 2 MR. : No. I mean, it was 3 probably, I remember when I said that. It was, 4 you always hear of the horror stories, and when 5 you come home, come in off your days off, you 6 would be, like, oh, you know, what happened the 7 other day? Or this, that, and the third. You 8 know. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : That kind of thing. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : But I have never heard it 13 where it has been detrimental. 14 MR. : Okay. But it wasn't 15 talking specifically about, like, August 9th 16 (Indiscernible *00:21:12). 17 MR. : No, no. I'm talking, like, 18 ten years. I wasn't even a lieutenant at the 19 time. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : You know, I was still an 22 officer. 23 MR. stated, as a 24 lieutenant, he worked to enforce policy through 25 verbal counseling and by example. Taking the EFTA00061090  31 1 count is one of the most important duties 2 corrections," I keep on saying corrections, but 3 I know it's correctional officers "perform as 4 professionals." 5 MR. : Right. It's accountability. 6 Inmate accountability is the most important 7 thing here. Maintain security. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : You got to make sure that 10 they're all here at the end of the day. 11 MR. : So, are you saying, like, 12 basically, counts and rounds are the most 13 important things that a correctional officer 14 does? 15 MR. : Count, I mean, everything, 16 controlling contraband, shaking down. 17 Nowadays, with the K2, it's ridiculous. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : You know, there's a lot on 20 an officer's shoulders. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : But of course, you know, we 23 only do the counts at certain periods 24 throughout the day. You know? The officers 25 making rounds are what helps reduce the fact of EFTA00061091  32 1 them doing the K2 or, you know, making weapons 2 or tattooing or things of that nature. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : You know, so, of course, 5 making rounds, being visible. That's what we 6 like to say, and, like, when we're training or 7 whatever. Be visible. 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : Make the inmates see you. 10 MR. : So, counts are basically 11 to ensure everybody is there. And rounds are 12 to ensure that inmates are kind of doing what 13 they're supposed to be doing? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : And that's a perfect, what's 17 the word I'm looking for? Perfect expression. 18 MR. : Okay. Perfect example. 19 Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. -: ` stated the 22 Special Housing Unit is responsible for doing 23 rounds every 30 minutes. As the lieutenant, he 24 would sign round forms, if they were correct. 25 He had never signed off on forms that were EFTA00061092  33 1 filled out in advance, and would report any 2 instances of that to his supervisors, if he was 3 aware of it." So, I'm assuming what you mean 4 there is, if you knew they were filled out in 5 advance? 6 MR. : I wouldn't sign them. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : I'm not putting my John 9 Hancock on that. I would tell them 10 (Indiscernible *00:22:58). 11 MR. : But, how would you know 12 if they had filled it out in advance? You 13 mean, if -- 14 MR. : If I went there and sat, and 15 if I walked into the SHU unit and it was 1:00, 16 I'm just throwing the time out there -- 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : 1:00 p.m., but I saw the 19 rounds sheet, it was 1:00 when I walked in, but 20 I look at the rounds sheet and the 1:30 rounds 21 are already filled out. 22 MR. : And would that happen? 23 MR. : Very rarely. But I might, I 24 don't think I have seen it as a lieutenant, but 25 I have heard of it happening. EFTA00061093  34 1 MR. : But you never really, you 2 never witnessed it? 3 MR. : But, I was trained 4 differently. I was trained, you don't put your 5 ink to paper unless it's the way it's supposed 6 to be, and if it is, tell the boss. 7 MR. : Now, back then, August of 8 2019, had you heard that people were filling 9 them out in advance? 10 MR. : No. I didn't. 11 MR. : No? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. So you're not 14 aware of anybody filling them out in advance? 15 MR. : No. I have no personal 16 knowledge. 17 MR. : "He trained officers to 18 defer their round patterns, so inmates would 19 not be aware of their timing." 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : And that means it's just 22 not to be on an exactly 30 minute -- 23 MR. : Yeah. Don't always make 24 your rounds at 1:05, 1:35, 1:45. Alternate 25 your rounds. The policy states, every 30 EFTA00061094  35 1 minutes, not to exceed 40. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : You know? 4 MR. -: ` stated he had 5 heard stories of officers not completing their 6 30 minute rounds in the SHU. Other than the 7 Jeffrey Epstein death, he had not heard of an 8 instance for approximately five to ten years." 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So, I'm assuming what 11 you're saying here is 12 MR. : Back in the days. 13 MR. : But I'm assuming what you 14 said, when you say other than Jeffrey Epstein, 15 you did hear that they did not complete their 16 30 minute rounds? 17 MR. : I mean, bureau-wide. People 18 have gotten in trouble for it before. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : That's why, like, this 21 whole, this was all new with the fact that how 22 serious it got. 23 MR. : Okay. But you had heard 24 that, had you heard that on August 9th and 10th, 25 then, and I am assuming this means after the EFTA00061095  36 1 fact, that people weren't conducting their 30 2 minute rounds? 3 MR. : The only thing I heard is 4 the same thing everybody else has heard, out on 5 the street. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : What you hear in the media, 8 what you hear on social media, what you hear in 9 the newspapers. They were very quiet here. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : I was here that morning of, 12 after the fact, and we didn't get told 13 anything. 14 MR. : Are you talking about 15 August 10th? 16 MR. : Yeah. That Saturday. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You know. There was a total 19 blackout. We were kept in the dark. 20 MR. : And you hadn't heard 21 anything about, like, people not conducting 22 counts or rounds? 23 MR. : No. Just, well, like I 24 said, the same thing you heard out on the 25 street. EFTA00061096  37 1 MR. : But, I mean, not from 2 inside the institution? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : No one was speaking about 5 that? 6 MR. : Well, I mean, the whispers, 7 here and there, but nothing was confirmed. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : You know? Of course, when 10 something like this, look, it's, I have been 11 doing this almost 21 years. When something, 12 God forbid happens like this, everybody Monday 13 morning quarterbacks. 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. : Everybody talks, oh, they 16 must have done this, or they didn't do this. 17 That's all I have heard. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : I didn't hear nothing 20 official, if that's what you're asking. 21 MR. : Yeah. No, no, no. 22 MR. : I have heard rumor mills. 23 MR. : I just wanted to know -- 24 MR. : There were whispers. This, 25 that, and the other thing. EFTA00061097  38 1 MR. : I would just assume 2 people would have been talking inside the 3 institution. I wanted to make sure that you 4 also heard it inside the institution, not just 5 through the media? 6 MR. : Yeah. No, I mean, I, like, 7 as far as a whisper here and a rumor here, I 8 chose to stay away from it, because, one, I was 9 a supervisor and two, I know what was coming 10 down. 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : I knew how serious it was 13 going to be. And I was not going to entertain 14 any of that. 15 MR. : Sure. So, you had heard 16 people saying that there were rounds and counts 17 weren't complete; however, you didn't put any 18 credibility to it -- 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : -- because it wasn't 21 official? 22 MR. : No. It wasn't, it wasn't 23 official. It was just rumor mills. It was 24 whispers. It was Monday morning 25 quarterbacking, for lack of better terms. EFTA00061098  39 1 MR. : Okay. But that was a 2 correct, was that a correct assessment, which I 3 just -- 4 MR. : Yes. Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : I apologize. I don't mean 7 to go long-winded on it. 8 MR. : No, no, no. Just cause 9 when I said it, you said, no, but I just wanted 10 to make sure you actually meant yes. 11 MR. : Yeah, no. Like, I heard -- 12 MR. : With what, I know, I 13 understand -- 14 MR. nothing official. Yeah. 15 MR. : Right, yeah, yeah. I 16 just, cause for the transcript, it will read 17 that you're contradicting what I said, and I 18 just want to make sure -- 19 MR. : No problem. 20 MR. : -- what I said was 21 actually accurate. Okay. 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. stated he 24 recalled suicides taking place in MCC in 2003 25 and another several years later." So, I guess, EFTA00061099  40 1 what you're saying is that since you have 2 worked, maybe there was about two suicides? 3 MR. : I had one, I was personally 4 involved in one in 2003, and that's the one 5 that I was, that I referenced. There was one 6 years later. I don't recall what year it was, 7 or the outcome of that one. I just know that 8 the one that I was involved in, the officer in 9 charge in the SHU unit got suspended for it. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : So, the rounds were made, 12 but they weren't within that 30 to 40 minute, 13 so the OIC got hit on that one. 14 MR. : And do you know why the 15 OIC? 16 MR. : I think the rounds, I think, 17 if I can recall correctly, I think when he 18 entered the round, about 40 minutes, but it 19 turned out it didn't jive with the camera. So 20 they suspended him. 21 MR. : All right. So, if the 22 time that he wrote on the paper didn't show -- 23 MR. : Didn't jive with the camera. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible 25 *00:27:38). EFTA00061100  41 1 MR. : Like, the reason, the camera 2 showed we were making rounds. We just didn't 3 make them between 30 and 40, that 30 minute, 4 not to exceed 40, I believe it just didn't jive 5 with the camera. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : And they hit him. 8 MR. : And were you actually 9 working in the SHU at the time? 10 MR. : I was in the SHU at the 11 time. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : I was one of the officers 14 that cut that inmate down and we tried to do 15 CPR on him. We did CPR on him. We got him 16 down to Medical, and then they rushed him out 17 in an ambulance. 18 MR. : And just out of 19 curiosity, in that case, at about what time was 20 he found? 21 MR. : Oh, that was, like, 3:30 22 something. 23 MR. : In the afternoon? 24 MR. : It was before the 4 p.m. 25 count. EFTA00061101  42 1 MR. : Okay. So it happened 2 actually in the afternoon? 3 MR. : Yeah. That was on day 4 shift. 5 MR. : Did he have a cellmate at 6 the time? 7 MR. : Yes, he did. 8 MR. : And the cellmate didn't 9 notice? 10 MR. : His cellmate said, yo, you 11 want to take care of this? 12 MR. : Oh, wow. 13 MR. : And he was strung up. 14 MR. : Was it also from, where 15 was it, where was he hanging from? 16 MR. : He had the thing tied up. 17 He was between the bunk and the window. 18 MR. : Okay. Was he attached to 19 the bunk or what was he attached to? 20 MR. : I think he was attached to 21 the window, if I recall. I honestly don't 22 remember. That was a long time ago. 23 MR. : Sure, sure, sure. 24 MR. : It was either the top of the 25 bunk or to the window. He was between, I do EFTA00061102  43 1 remember he was between the bunk and the 2 window. 3 MR. : But that's important to 4 note. So he actual