EFTA00113460.pdf

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF MARK EPSTEIN OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Phone: 3 4 1 MR. The recorder has started. 1 2 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 MS. .• 3 with the Department of Justice, Office 3 4 of Inspector General. Today is Wednesday, 4 MR. EPSTEIN: And when you stated, my name 5 September 22, 2021. The time is 10:29 a.m. We 5 Mark is M-A-R-K. Not with a C., a K. 6 are here at the New York Field Office, at 6 MR. : Thank you for taking the time 7 Office of Inspector General. Present is Mr. 7 to talk to us today. 8 Mark Epstein, DO] 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 9 Senior Special Attorney Agent , and 9 MR. : lust for the record, you are 10 myself. We are conducting an interview with 10 , Mr. Jeffrey Epstein's brother. 11 Mr. Mark Epstein in regards to Jeffrey 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 12 Epstein's investigation, of his death. I'm 12 MR. : And I understand that 13 going to introduce myself for the recording, 13 basically, you reached out through attorney 14 and I'm going to state my last name also spell 14 , you reached out to us, and you stated 15 it out. My name is Special Agent 15 that there was a few things you wanted to share 16 . D-A-N-I-E-L. 16 with the OIG. 17 MR. Senior Special Agent 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 18 with the U.S Department of 18 MR. : Go ahead. You can go ahead. 19 Justice Office of the Inspector General. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 20 . 20 MR. : Let me just ask some, 21 MR. : (J .y 21 like, just, or ask to maybe see his license, 22 MR. EPSTEIN: . E-P-S-T-E-I- 22 just so we can verify -- 23 N. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Attorney Richmond, can you 24 MR. : -- if you don't want to 25 introduce yourself? 25 ask him for his date of birth. (Indiscernible EFTA00113460  S 6 1 *00:01:46) 1 I first heard of Jeffrey's death, I just 2 MR. : Yeah. Can we verify? 2 assumed that it was a suicide, because it was 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Sure. 3 reported as such, and that time, I had no 4 MR. : Or you can just ask your 4 reason to doubt it. And I just respected his 5 birthday, date of birth. 5 decision to take himself out. But then, as 6 MR...eah. 6 things progressed, and when more information 7 MR. : It's one or the other. 7 came out, it looks like, if you just looked at 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, it's only my driver's 8 the information, there's no way in the world 9 license. 9 you would say it was a suicide. The first 10 MR. : Mr. Mark Epstein has shown me 10 thing being the autopsy. The autopsy was 11 a photo, driver's license, and it has his 11 conducted the next day. It was conducted by 12 picture on it, and it states his name on it. 12 the city pathologist. And I was right, I was 13 Just for the record, here is my credentials. 13 able to iiiiiiiathologist to witness this, and 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 14 had Dr. Barton (Phonetic Sp. 15 MR. : I'm a Special Agent 15 *00:03:00). I don't know if you know Dr. 16 with the DOJ/OIG. 16 Barton, biiiiiiican't get a -- 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 17 MS. : He's the former Chief 18 MR. : And these are my 18 Medical Examiner of the city of New York. 19 credentials. Senior Special Agent -- 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 20 MS. : So, he went back to his 21 MR. 21 office because he was hired by Mark to review, 22 You can go now. 22 and be present, at the autopsy. 23 MR. : Go ahead. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Normally, if I hire a 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. As I mentioned 24 forensic pathologist to review the autopsy, he 25 before, before you came, I told them that, when 25 has the right to just stand there and watch. 7 8 1 And then, we can get the body, afterwards, to 1 MS. : Just to clarify. We found 2 do a second autopsy, if needed. But because of 2 out, through the media, they were going to make 3 who Barton is, they did whatever he requested 3 that change. So, we called the Medical 4 them to do with the autopsy. So, there was no 4 Examiner's Office, asking how come you haven't 5 need for a second autopsy. Barton, also, has 5 notified the family, and what is the central 6 been on the Special Commission, investigating 6 reason for changing this? We interviewed them 7 prison deaths, since the Attica riots in 1970. 7 for about, hmm, an hour. And we discovered 8 So, he's been doing this for a long time. 8 that they really didn't have much of a basis. 9 There's no better authority in prison 9 But everybody was just closing the 10 deaths than Barton. And the city 10 investigation. And when I persisted, is when I 11 pathologist came out with Dr. Barton, and her 11 learned the camera on the floor, where Mr. 12 determination was, she could not call this a 12 Epstein's cell was, had been corrupted. And no 13 suicide. There was too many questionable 13 one had actually viewed that camera. 14 things, you know, like the broken bones in his 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, one of the questions 15 neck. And Barton confirmed that, he also, 15 about the camera on the tier, I don't know, 16 could not to call this a suicide. It was much 16 there's some pictures of, you know, we're 17 more like a homicide. Plus, there were other 17 walking through the tier, and (Indiscernible 18 wounds on his body. I'm, like, I have pictures 18 *00:05:08) all the cameras, right? That camera 19 I could show you. And then, when we got the 19 wasn't working. So, one of the questions I 20 death certificate, you need the death 20 have is, when did that camera stop working? 21 certificate in order to recover his body, the 21 When was the last time that camera actually 22 cause of death was pending. You know, pending 22 took a picture, you know, and have they 23 for an investigation. And then, a few days 23 determined why that camera wasn't working? 24 later, the Chief Medical Examiner of New York 24 Were the wires cut? 25 declares it a suicide. 25 Was it unplugged, or, you know, why was EFTA00113461  9 10 1 that camera not working? There is an answer to 1 not. But for me, the lights went off, I said, 2 that. You know, and I am going to get it. I 2 either this is the stupidest guy on the planet, 3 had, I could start showing some pictures, but 3 or, if Jeffrey was killed, the killer was 4 to keep going on, you know, they did, they 4 already on the tier. So, it's just things that 5 swabbed - under autopsy report - they swabbed 5 might be come into the tier to kill him, I 6 his fingers for DNA evidence, in case somebody 6 mean, there's too many witnesses, how do you 7 was there. Was that ever checked? I never saw 7 get somebody in or out? But if he was killed, 8 the results of that DNA testing. You know, 8 the killer was already on the tier. 9 nothing has been (Indiscernible *00:05:50) for 9 So, for him to make the statement that no 10 that. 10 one went in or out, that convinced him it was a 11 And one of the things that lit up my mind 11 suicide. I mean, that's like a, I think we 12 on top of this, one of the big things is that, 12 agree, it was like an amateur mistake in the 13 Attorney General Barr made a statement, saying 13 investigations, because there were a number of 14 that he viewed the camera that was outside of 14 people inside. Right? Well, let me pull up 15 the tier, that showed the door, and the guards, 15 something to show you. 16 as that's directly right between, that the 16 MS. Okay. 17 guards were just, you know, jerking off, or 17 MR. : On that note, do you have 18 (Indiscernible *00:06:09) web, or whatever they 18 any information that anyone was actually in his 19 were doing. And he saw that video tape, and he 19 cell? 20 said that, he said that nobody went - that he 20 MR. EPSTEIN: There was nobody in his 21 personally saw it, which I thought was strange. 21 cell. 22 You know, that nobody went in or out of the 22 MS. : Well, was -. 23 tier. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: There was supposed to be 24 So, that convinced them it was a suicide. 24 somebody in his cell. Because he was 25 You guys are professional investigators. I am 25 supposedly on suicide watch, doing whatever, 11 12 1 and he was released, and there was supposed to 1 MR. : lust for the recording, I'm 2 be somebody in his cell, and there wasn't, and 2 just going to state that Mr. Epstein has his 3 he was taken out. He was alone that night, in 3 own laptop, and he is providing us -. He is 4 his cell. And so, other, like, just 4 just going to explain the pictures to us. 5 evidentiary things, they report that he was 5 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 6 found unresponsive in his cell. And then was 6 MR. : In your custody. 7 taken to the hospital. He wasn't found 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Also, in the autopsy 8 unresponsive. He was found dead. Okay? 8 9 Jeffrey was dead for a minimum of two hours 9 MS. : And the picture is from the 10 before they found him. And I will show you how 10 autopsy. 11 we know that. 11 MR. : From the autopsy. 12 MS. : Also, talk about the 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. They also 13 description of the (Indiscernible *00:07:45). 13 found, you know, three broken bones in his 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A 14 neck. Which is extremely rare to have one 15 whole bunch of things. I got -. I have a list 15 broken bone, when you do what's called a soft 16 of the number of the photos. I left it at 16 hanging. You have, like, Robin Williams hung 17 home, unfortunately, but I will pull them up, 17 himself with a bathrobe thing. With the belt 18 and have a look. 18 thing. Those are soft hangings. You usually 19 MR. : Now, are you going to 19 don't break bones, and he had three breaks. 20 show us why you know that he was dead for at 20 Which is one of the reasons they thought it was 21 least two hours? 21 more like a homicide. If you -. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. 22 MR. : So, what we're looking at 23 MR. : Okay. 23 is, do you know which bones we're talking 24 MR. EPSTEIN: I'm going to get to that 24 about? 25 picture. As soon as I can. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: It's the hyoid bone. EFTA00113462  13 14 1 Something like the hyoid, is what it's called. 1 MR. : Really? 2 MR. : And did they ever -- 2 MS. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: And it really isn't -. 3 MR. : (Indiscernible 4 MR. : discuss anything about 4 *00:09:28 ? 5 chest compressions? Would that potentially 5 MS. (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 6 have happened during CPR? 6 MR. Oh, for the statement of 7 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 7 information in? 8 MS. : No. 8 MS. That was just released 9 MR. EPSTEIN: No. This is the neck. 9 (Indiscernible *00:09:33). And announced by 10 MS. : Chest compressions are 10 the (Indiscernible *00:09:39). 11 lower. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Do you get involved with 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Chest compressions. 12 murder investigations? Is that part of the 13 It can break ribs. Not the higher. 13 normally? I mean, do you have, like, any 14 MS. : So. 14 forensic experience on that? 15 MR. EPSTEIN: It felt pretty useful. See, 15 MR. : So, our investigation 16 this is the camera that wasn't working. 16 pertains to the death of -- 17 MR. : Right. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: All right. 18 MR. EPSTEIN: That would show him 18 MR. : Jeffrey. 19 (Indiscernible *00:09:09). 19 (Indiscernible *00:09:59). 20 MR. And they provide you with 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. One thing I'll show 21 all of this? 21 you now, before we get to it is that the only 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 22 way they was trying to say that, well, he put a 23 MR. Okay. 23 noose on his neck, and sort of jumped off the 24 MS. (Indiscernible *00:09:24) 24 top bunk. That would give him that breaks, or 25 releases. 25 it would be harsh. You know, like, if you saw 15 16 1 the Shawshank Redemption, when Brooks kicked 1 to squeeze the tube with no air in it. It 2 himself off the chair, you know, and fall down. 2 said, he's dead for two hours. Why were they 3 That's (Indiscernible *00:10:23), because it 3 trying to make it look like he was alive? 4 has to be harsh like that. The top bunk in 4 Like, these are -. The EMTs - and I would like 5 Jeffrey's cell was filled with his medications 5 to talk to them - it's , and I 6 (Indiscernible *00:10:29). Nobody was on that 6 think it's , them two EMTs. If I 7 bunk. Nobody jumped off that bunk. I'm just 7 recall, they're the EMTs that were actually in 8 looking for the neck pictures. Also, let me go 8 the cell. 9 back one second. Shit, I apologize for not 9 MR. : Okay. 10 having that list. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, just, let me go back 11 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:10:54). 11 one second. Here is another picture of the top 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Uh-huh. Also, what, another 12 bunk. You see, nobody was there. So, I would 13 question I have is, who was in charge in the 13 like to talk to those two guys. 14 prison? Who -? First of all, they moved the 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 body, which you're not supposed to do. And 15 MR. EPSTEIN: This is the noose. Right? 16 supposedly, they photographed the body, you 16 Look at that. When the guards found him, the 17 know, when they find a dead body in prison, 17 guy was quoted as saying that he cut him down. 18 they're not supposed to move it. They're 18 And I think the guard said . The 19 supposed to get the Medical Examiner's Office, 19 guard that found him. He said he cut him down. 20 so they can (Indiscernible *00:11:17) surprise. 20 Yeah. You see the edge of his noose thing? 21 I mean, no matter how you look at it, he was 21 That's a hemmed edge. That wasn't cut. Okay? 22 moved. 22 If this was tied to something, this would be 23 Now, if you saw the photographs, when they 23 wrinkled. It would be marked from there, you 24 took him out of the hospital, he was on a 24 know, like, here, you see, like, creases in 25 gurney, and he was intubated. They were trying 25 this part? There would be something here, EFTA00113463  17 18 1 showing that this was tied to something. Okay? 1 MR. : Okay. 2 Here is another question I have. He was dead 2 Mr. EPSTEIN: Also, there's a question of, 3 when they took him. When they found him. And 3 why was he moved? Because you know, you know 4 he was wearing - and I checked through someone 4 what lividit is? 5 who was there, who said that, I guess, what was 5 MR. : Yes. 6 he wearing in the cell? And he was wearing his 6 MR. : Yes. 7 orange boxer shorts and t-shirt. The prison 7 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, you die, you fall 8 clothing. 8 on your back, your gut turns purple, because 9 MR. : Okay. 9 your blood settles. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: They take his dead body out. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 And it was either, they cut the stuff off of 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Nowi___hewasmoved. So, I 12 him, because I have pictures of the boxer 12 want to find out from what 13 shorts cut. Who dressed the dead body with the 13 position was Jeffrey in when he found him? I 14 hospital gown? Okay. Dead bodies, you cover 14 know the answer to that. Because he was 15 with a sheet. He wasn't going to run down the 15 sitting, like, right by Robin Williams, you 16 hall in the hospital, with his balls flapping 16 know, your ass and the back of your legs are 17 in the wind. He didn't have to hide. So, who 17 going to be broken, you know, if you're leaning 18 -? Who -? Now, I know that when they took him 18 forward, doing it that way, the front of your 19 to the hospital, there were four people in the 19 legs are going to be. You know, so, what 20 room, and somebody had a hand-held video. And, 20 position was he in? After they found him -- 21 like, and they were working down at the 21 MR. : So, you said 22 hospital. Where is that tape? 22 made statements. Which statements are 23 MR. : Okay. 23 (Indiscernible *00:14:28)? 24 MR. : How do you know that? 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, he said he cut him 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I was told that. 25 down. 19 20 1 MR. Where did you get that 1 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I don't. They don't show 2 statement from? 2 me. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: It was in the paper. 3 MS. (Indiscernible *00:14:57) 4 MS. : It was (Indiscernible 4 evidence from that prosecution. 5 *00:14:31). 5 MR. • Right, right. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: That was that published. 6 MS. That would be (Indiscernible 7 MR. Like, recently, or was 7 *00:15:00). 8 that -- 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. At the time, at the 9 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:15:03). 10 time. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: That's his neck. All right? 11 MR. They hadn't received the 11 If I strangle you, now that, number one, does 12 statements from him back in the day? 12 not look like a sheet. It looks more like an 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was quoted at the 13 electric cord, because he had a CPAP machine in 14 time, but, you know, he said, I mean, that's 14 this roomjiliIh_g_electric cord. 15 what he said, he would cut him down and said, 15 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. 16 you fucked up. Or you messed up. You know, 16 MR. EPSTEIN: That does not look like a 17 when the supervisor (Indiscernible *00:14:46), 17 sheet. Plus, if he had a sheet around his 18 he said he messed up, he didn't do the checks. 18 neck, it would be discolored from the 19 Or somethiiiiiiiiiit effect. 19 secretions from his skin. Okay? Now, if I 20 MR. : Okay. 20 strangle you, metaphorically, with an electric 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 21 cord and I let you lie there, okay? You won't 22 MR. : But not, like, an 22 get a groove in your neck, because your 23 official report -- 23 internal cell pressure will flatten your skin 24 MR. EPSTEIN: I dont -- 24 back out. Like, you might get a little 25 MR. -- stating that? 25 abrasion mark, or rub mark, but you won't get a EFTA00113464  21 22 1 groove stuck in your neck. That takes at least 1 don't (Indiscernible *00:16:27). You're not 2 two hours. That's how we know he was dead for 2 going to get marks above your noose. That's -. 3 at least two hours, because of that. Okay? 3 It won't go down. Your neck won't mark above 4 That's incontrovertible. 4 the noose. The noose line or whatever, the 5 MS. : It's not consistent with 5 ligature, whatever was used. 6 what you thou ht was demonstrated as the noose. 6 You know, where these marks above the 7 MR. : Right. 7 line. That means also, if you hang yourself, 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 8 that line goes up towards your ears. You 9 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:15:52) 9 strangle with a garrote, that's the more 10 evidence with (Indiscernible *00:15:53) 10 straight back. I mean, the line goes all the 11 MR. EPSTEIN: He could have been for six 11 way back and that's what to expect. Okay? So, 12 hours. But a minimum of two. That's Dr. 12 here's the closer look. The better look. 13 Barton's, you know, opinion, which I take is 13 That's not the noose, it's not a sheet doing 14 more of (Indiscernible *00:16:04), as opposed 14 that. That's being abraded from that. Also, 15 to it. That's not a sheet. That looks more 15 his eyes. And I'm going to have pictures of 16 like an electric cord. Also, you see these 16 it. When you strangle, you know, the little 17 marks above the groove line? 17 blood vessels in your eyes burst. The -- 18 18 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:17:33). 19 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: -- the tibia, whatever, and 20 MR. EPSTEIN: If you hang yourself, and 20 it's exhibited here. Also, he has a cut on his 21 you put something around your neck, and you 21 arm here. You know, so, you can see the groove 22 hang yourself, okay, it's going to slip up. 22 is in there. That groove is not coming out. 23 It's going to go high on your neck. If 23 What number is that? That may be the list. 24 anything, the skin below that mark is going to 24 Hold on. Let's reboot. 25 be abraded. Or roughed up. Because the nooses 25 MR. : When did you last - quick 23 24 1 question, you mentioned that you heard from 1 suicide. If this was done, somebody who was 2 somebody that they had a handheld video camera 2 put on that ward to do this. The cell doors 3 in the hospital. Who did you hear that from? 3 are electronically locked. He was killed, went 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Somebody over there. 4 back to his cell, and what I also heard is 5 MR. : Do you have a specific name? 5 after the fact, a lot of prisoners are 6 MR. EPSTEIN: No. Okay. This is the 6 transferred off (Indiscernible *00:22:18). So 7 stuff. Where is the little blood vessels 7 someone was planted there to do this. I don't 8 broken, because there's a cut on his lip here. 8 know if he's lost (Indiscernible *00:22:23), 9 Look at that. There's a bruise on the back of 9 find out who was on that ward, you know, that 10 his neck here. Oh, there's another question I 10 was two weeks ractically. 11 had before I forget, is in the paperwork, the 11 MR. : Who told you that someone 12 last guards to see him was Tova Noel and 12 was (Indiscernible *00:22:29)? 13 there's an unnamed guard number one and an 13 MR. EPSTEIN: A journalist. 14 unnamed guard number two (Indiscernible 14 (Indiscernible *00:22:29). He lied. 15 *00:19:43). You see here, it's like as if 15 MR. : Ah. Now, that is 16 there's ligature. This is the autopsy. 16 something we would very much like to follow up 17 Another thing you should be investigating, 17 on (Indiscernible *00:22:41)? Was there any -? 18 assuming he was killed, is who's on the ward; 18 Can you talk to someone about how that would 19 who are the prisoners on the ward? Because I 19 (Indiscernible *00:22:44), or not? 20 was also told, and this was through somebody 20 MR. EPSTEIN: I will ask, if I can get you 21 who has been reliable, through an attorney of 21 the (Indiscernible *00:22:48). 22 somebody who was on the ward, he said that cell 22 MR. MIE: Okay. 23 door (Indiscernible *00:21:47). So, you know, 23 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:22:52) it 24 there is an old saying that anyone can commit 24 was there at night. (Indiscernible *00:23:11). 25 murder, but it takes an artist to commit 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I've also heard that EFTA00113465  28 26 1 there's, like, 20 plus guards that were, like, 1 *00:24:19). He's worked with Steve Bannon, 2 there that, furlough, that haven't worked 2 who's worked with (Indiscernible *00:24:19). 3 since. Indiscernible *00:23:24). 3 Steve Bannon has 16 hours of video tape. 4 MR. : That's the same noose on the 4 (Indiscernible *00:24:27). I know this because 5 floor? 5 my brother said he worked with him. And on 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 6 that day, he said he stopped hanging out with 7 MS. : Absolutely. 7 Trump, when he realized (Indiscernible 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 8 *00:24:37). In the papers, they're reading he 9 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:23:35). 9 stopped hanging out with Trump, and, like, he 10 Back to the tier. 10 fell apart (Indiscernible *00:24:39). It was 11 MR. : Okay. 11 bullshit. Everybody was, like, (Indiscernible 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. That's -. Yeah. 12 *00:24:44). He stopped hanging out with Trump 13 Yeah. That's not cut. It's kind of 13 when he realized Trump was a dick. That's 14 (Indiscernible *00:23:45). And it's not, you 14 exactly what he said. And I think 15 know, I mean, it's pretty standard sizes, I 15 (Indiscernible *00:24:57). All right. And I 16 believe. And this would be discolored from the 16 don't have any proof, but if this was a murder, 17 secretions of his neck, (Indiscernible 17 then the government would probably 18 *00:23:54). Things I will also tell you is 18 (Indiscernible *00:25:05). And I Know, also, 19 that, in 2016 election, my brother didn't tell 19 that hurting somebody else in a federal prison, 20 me why he (Indiscernible *00:24:08). What he 20 that the DEA agent transported to a maximum 21 told me is he said what he knew about 21 security. He's a real bad ass and carried on, 22 (Indiscernible *00:24:10), Trump (Indiscernible 22 and felt even worse. You know, he was brought 23 *00:24:13), because they would have to cancel 23 out to be (Indiscernible *00:25:21). They 24 the election. 24 handcuffed him before they uncuff him, and he 25 My brother is also (Indiscernible 25 was a DEA agent who was getting the credibility 27 28 1 as a criminal, as a bad guy. A troublemaker. 1 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He -- 2 (Indiscernible *00:25:30). So, it's justice 2 MR. : -- explain that. 3 from, you can put people in prison that have 3 MR. EPSTEIN: -- he robs people. He 4 (Indiscernible *00:25:34). 4 probably close to the wealth he has comes from 5 MR. : Okay. 5 the money he didn't pay people. He screwed 6 MR. EPSTEIN: That's (Indiscernible 6 over, over and over again. And he gets - pays 7 *00:25:35). I was told that by somebody. So, 7 them, like, a percentage of what he owes them, 8 yeah. So, also, the thing I wanted to show you 8 they sign non-disclosure agreements. That's 9 here, the reason I - honestly, to be honest 9 how he slides. And everybody knew that. Yeah. 10 with you - I think Trump is behind it. If 10 MR. : All right. 11 someone was closer on the inside told me Trump 11 (VIDEO PLAYS) 12 (Indiscernible *00:25:53), after his death, you 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, this video was from 13 know, someone who knows more about this shit 13 before my brother's death. (Indiscernible 14 than I do. 14 *00:26:49). But wait, I'm going to get to the 15 MR. : Well, when you say that 15 beginning of the part. 16 Trump was a crook, or that your brother said 16 MS. : Some of the information 17 that he (Indiscernible *00:26:00), can you give 17 about that is also in that book that just came 18 more information other than just that? 18 out(Indiscernible *00:27:03), when you were 19 MR. EPSTEIN: No. He didn't tell me that, 19 talking about (Indiscernible *00:27:08). 20 but if you were a legal busines man, you would 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, let me see if I can 21 know that Trump is a crook. Everybody knows 21 (Indiscernible *00:27:12). Oh, he asked them 22 trump is a crook. That's why no legitimate 22 (Indiscernible *00:27:17). All right. So, 23 real estaiiiiiiiiiiwould deal with him. 23 this is before he died. 24 MR. : And when you say, 24 MR. : So, we're looking at -- 25 "Crook," though, can you just kind of - 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I've met Trump. EFTA00113466  29 30 1 MR. • -- President Trump there, 1 MR. DO you remember around 2 as well as a news reporter. 2 when that date would have been? 3 MR. EPSTEIN: O'Reilly. Bill O'Reilly. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. July 8th and 9th or 4 MR. Bill O'Reilly. 4 something. 5 MR. EPSTEIN: (Indiscernible *00:27:54). 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. Do you know when that was 6 MR. EPSTEIN: On a Thursday night. 7 done? 7 MR. : So, 2019? 8 MR. EPSTEIN: It was prior to the death. 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. It was right 9 That was. 9 before his death. So, he called me if he was 10 MR. Prior to the death. 10 in Paris. He called me, just the usual, you 11 MR. EPSTEIN: But, you know, I mean, 11 know, (Indiscernible *00:28:41). You know? 12 personally, I think Trump was jealous that 12 And then, the next day, he, you know, flew 13 people (Indiscernible *00:28:06), and wanted to 13 back. And he was arrested that Friday. 14 take that power. That's the kind of person 14 (Indiscernible *00:28:50). Saturday morning, 15 Trump is. (Indiscernible *00:28:14). You 15 his attorneys called me and told me he was 16 know? 16 arrested. 17 MS. : I noticed that's not your 17 MR. : And how often would you 18 strongest argument. 18 talk with Jeffrey up until then? 19 MR. EPSTEIN: No. It's not my strongest 19 MR. EPSTEIN: We would talk every couple 20 argument. It's, that's an opinion. Okay? But 20 of weeks, or something like that. A week. A 21 this ism strop est argument. 21 month. That, you know, we emailed something. 22 MR. : So, when is the last time 22 Whatever. You know? Just keep trying, and I 23 you spoke with Jeffrey? 23 keep telling him what's happening with the 24 MR. EPSTEIN: The Thursday night before he 24 family stuff, and he would tell me funny 25 was arrested. 25 stories. When - he used to hang out with Woody 31 32 1 Allen, though. So, he would tell me funny 1 MR. Okay. And email? 2 things that Woody Allen said. I guess Woody 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. It's, like, for 3 Allen is 3 instance, I mean, I have the email exchange, 4 MR. : So -- 4 and when he sent me the video clip, that Bannon 5 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, we just amuse 5 had sent him (Indiscernible *00:29:52), you 6 other. Just kee check. 6 know? And I asked him, you know, what was this 7 MR. : I don't know where we 7 for. You know, and he said the (Indiscernible 8 heard this information from, but I was told, I 8 *00:30:00) testimony. I said, you were 9 was informed that you were estranged for, like, 9 subpoenaed? 10 a number of years. Is that not correct? 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: He said, no. (Indiscernible 12 MS. : You hadn't seen him. 12 *00:30:03). He was just, he was doing stuff. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: I haven't seen him. 13 And, you know, he just, he said he, I thought 14 MR. : Okay. 14 (Indiscernible *00:30:09), he thought I would 15 MR. EPSTEIN: My mother died in 2004. Or 15 find it funny. I remember, it was, like, he 16 - yeah -. 2004. Since that time, maybe I saw 16 was had a beer in the video, and I've never 17 him a handful of times. And the last time was 17 seen my brother with a beard before. So, I 18 seven years rior to his death. 18 wrote back. I said, the funniest part is, you 19 MR. : Okay. SO, you hadn't 19 were with a beard. And he wrote back and he 20 seen him for seven years -- 20 said, that you could tell who I was? My 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 21 disguise didn't work? You know, it was just, 22 MR. : -- but you spoke over the 22 it was just banter between two brothers. 23 telephone a number of few weeks? 23 (Indiscernible *00:30:26). 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, yeah. And emailed. 24 MR. : So -. 25 Yeah. Yeah. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: So, that was the last time I EFTA00113467  33 34 1 spoke to him, was that Thursday night before he 1 Florida(Indiscernible *00:31:15). I know 2 was (Indiscernible *00:30:32). 2 Jeffrey was not going to flee. He wasn't flee. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you know 3 (Indiscernible *00:31:19). Not that he would 4 anything about his state of mind leading up to 4 do that anyhow. Because he (Indiscernible 5 5 *00:31:23). And that's what put me on the map. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. I know who he spoke 6 Most people didn't even know Jeff had a 7 to the daiiiiiiiiiie died. 7 brother. 8 MR. : And who did he speak 8 MR. : Okay. 9 with? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: We had a social life 10 MR. EPSTEIN: He spoke to someone who was 10 together. And so, that's where my head, dating 11 close to him. I mean, and they had 11 back, you know, refer to it as a (Indiscernible 12 (Indiscernible *00:30:45). Not a clue they 12 *00:31:36) proctologist. Every journalist on 13 were very surprised that this happened. And 13 the planet would (Indiscernible *00:31:38) to 14 most of his, one of the attorneys gave a 14 try to find some dirt on me, to try to make me 15 (Indiscernible *00:30:50) was publicly saying 15 tell this kind of stuff. (Indiscernible 16 that he spoke to Jeffrey, Jeffrey was very 16 *00:31:45). But yeah, he had two separate 17 upbeat. He also thought he had a good case, 17 lives. And so, bail was denied. And then, he 18 using (Indiscernible *00:30:56) non-prosecution 18 had a bail hearing coming up two days after he 19 agreement he had, from Florida, from years 19 died. 20 back. So, and also, when Jeffrey was first 20 And this time - and he was pretty up, 21 arrested, his attorneys called me and asked me 21 like, you know, his jets, the house, close to 22 if I would, back and help him with his bail. 22 100 million dollars' worth of stuff for the 23 They said it's helpful for other people to 23 bail. The highest bail in the United Sates ever 24 participate in the bail. Because they should- 24 was 100 million dollars. Some South American, 25 have. Put him in the house in 25 Central American, (Indiscernible *00:32:09). 35 36 1 But that's the highest bail they ruled on. 1 MR. -- to (Indiscernible 2 When they were going through the appeal on the 2 *00:32:54) close to the bail? 3 bail, his attorneys called me up and they asked 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 4 me if I would guarantee his entire bail. And 4 MR. And that was two days 5 it has since doubled. And I agreed to it. 5 after he was found? 6 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, no. 7 MR. EPSTEIN: And so, there might have 7 MS. : That's the day -- 8 been a chance he got bail in two days. 8 MR. EPSTEIN: The hearing was supposed to 9 MS. : Right. 9 -. I agree -- 10 MR. EPSTEIN: And then, he would have been 10 MR. : That's right. 11 under house arrest. He would have paid for 11 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I agreed before he was 12 guards. They would have an ankle monitor. 12 dead, but the hearing was supposed to take 13 Camera. Whatever it would take to do this all. 13 place -. Like, he died, I think it was August 14 So, if you - and I think, you know, if he was 14 9th. Or something. The hearing was scheduled 15 going to go take himself out, wait two fucking 15 for, like, 11th or something. There was, like, 16 days. You know, if you got bail, then you at 16 a two-dayliiiiiiiii 17 least, you're home for a year before the trial 17 MR. : And then, do you remember 18 comes up, if nothing else. (Indiscernible 18 how much the bail was? 19 *00:32:46iiiiiiiiiiit make sense. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Close to 100 million. 20 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : It was close to 100? 21 MR. EPSTEIN: If Jeffrey went. I don't 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 22 think Jeffre would do that. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, you did actually 23 MR. just to clarify, you 24 agree to the bail -- 24 mentioned 100 million dollar bail, and you 25 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 25 guaranteed it on top of it. So, that was EFTA00113468  37 38 1 technically 200 million? 1 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Right. And his friend 2 MR. : And you spoke to -. Who is 3 put up some. I don't know how much 3 Katrina Shuliac to Mr. Epstein? 4 David put up. But he was also in the initial 4 MR. EPSTEIN: A friend. 5 pool at first, (Indiscernible *00:33:31) house. 5 MR. : A childhood friend, a long- 6 In Florida. David had also put up some 6 time friend? 7 (Indiscernible *00:33:35). David Michell is 7 MR. EPSTEIN: A number of years. 8 the one who -. The friend. And I heard he was 8 MR. : Were they in a relationship, 9 ou (Indiscernible *00:33:40). 9 or -? 10 MR. : Now, as far as the person 10 MR. EPSTEIN: His exact nature of it, I 11 that he - were you saying that he spoke with 11 don't know, because I didn't know of her. But 12 someone on the telephone, prior to August 9th 12 I know she's been -. I just found out she was 13 or 10th? 13 in the picture a number of years. I believe 14 MR. EPSTEIN: The night -- 14 eight years. 15 MR. : Or something. 15 MR. : In a romantic relationship? 16 MR. EPSTEIN: -- the evening before he 16 MR. EPSTEIN: I believe so. Yeah. 17 died, because it was (Indiscernible *00:33:54), 17 MS. : But you didn't know 18 yeah. 18 confirmation? You had, like -. 19 MR. : And was that a female? 19 MR. EPSTEIN: I can't ask Jeff. 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, it was. 20 MS. : Right. Obviously. 21 MR. : And do you want to say 21 MR. Have you spoken with her? 22 the name of its and ask if that's correct. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 23 MR. Is the name Katrina Shuliac? 23 MR. And did she say that they 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 24 were in a romantic relationship? 25 MR. : Is that who he spoke to? 25 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. (Indiscernible 39 40 1 *00:34:44). 1 MR. Okay. But when you 2 MR. She did? 2 specifically talked about the conversation that 3 MR. EPSTEIN: I believe it to be so, and I 3 she had with Jeffrey, (Indiscernible 4 found pictures. 4 *00:35:18)? 5 MR. And have you seen -? 5 MR. EPSTEIN: That was -. I don't 6 Have you spoken with her since August 9, 2019? 6 remember the exact date. But I think it was 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. Yes. 7 just a few weeks of the death. 8 MR. : Did she tell you what the 8 MR. : Okay. But she didn't 9 conversation, what took place during the 9 tell you anything specifically why he contacted 10 conversation? 10 her, or what they spoke about? 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Just that he was -. He 11 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 12 sounded upbeat, and is that she didn't think he 12 MR. : No. Just that he sounded 13 committed suicide. Because it didn't sound 13 upbeat? 14 like he was oin to do that. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was. Yeah. 15 MR. : But did she say anything 15 That's, like, she made (Indiscernible 16 that they talked about, though? 16 *00:35:41). 17 MR. EPSTEIN: No. I didn't want to get 17 MR. Okay. 18 too personal. And, you know, at the time it 18 MR. : Was she surprised that he 19 was , like, you know, my brother is dead, I 19 called her? 20 (Indiscernible *00:35:08) conversation that I 20 MR. EPSTEIN: I don't -. I don't know if 21 need to know. You know? 21 -. I don't know. To be honest with you. I 22 MR. : When did you speak with 22 didn't ask her that much. She didn't say, oh, 23 her? 23 shit, yeah, I didn't get any kind of reaction 24 MR. EPSTEIN: A number of times since 24 from her. (Indiscernible *00:35:41) 25 then. 25 MR. : All right. EFTA00113469  41 42 1 MR. Do you know if Jeffrey 1 *00:36:SS). And he was trying to use that as, 2 changed his will leading up to August 9th? 2 well, he was contemplating suicide. I think 3 MR. EPSTEIN: I was told he changed his 3 maybe he was contemplating being killed in 4 will. He did. Now, traditionally, my brother 4 prison and wanted to make sure that his will 5 and I were not in each other's wills. Because 5 was up to date. I don't think it was fear -. 6 I don't need his money, he don't need my money. 6 I don't think it was fear of suicide. I mean, 7 So, he changed the will, from my understanding. 7 you know, I don't think he was planning 8 Now, I'm not the executive of his estate. I 8 suicide. I think if anything, he was 9 had nothing to do with his estate. The 9 (Indiscernible *00:37:14) about being in 10 executives don't even talk to me. 10 prison. Indiscernible *00:37:16) stories. 11 (Indiscernible *00:36:23) or anything. But 11 MR. : And do you know anything 12 from what I understand, all of his assets were 12 about him, like, being placed on suicide watch, 13 put into a trust. Or they were supposed to be 13 and taken off? Do you know anything -? 14 put into a trust, after Jeffrey died. And they 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was placed on 15 paid out all the money to the victims, and his 15 suicide watch, and he was taken off. Exactly 16 (Indiscernible *00:36:35). And the trust 16 the reasons? I don'