EFTA00118867.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00118867 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00118868 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : This is Special Agent • 2 It's September 22nd. The time is 3 approximately 12:50 p.m. 4 MR. : 2021. 5 MR. : 2021. My name is 6 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. 7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 8 General, New York Field Office, and these are 9 my credentials. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : This interview with unit 12 manager, , is being conducted 13 as part of an official U.S. Department of 14 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 15 investigation. Again, today's date is 16 September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m. 17 This interview is being conducted at the 18 Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, New 19 York. Also present is DOJ/OIG Senior Special 20 Agent, . This interview will 21 be recorded by me, Special Agent 22 Could everyone please identify themselves for 23 the record, and spell your last name? To 24 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent? 25 EFTA00118869 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Senior Special Agent 2 with the U.S. DOJ/OIG. And these are my credentials. 4 MR. My name is 5 . Last name, . I'm a unit 6 manager at with. MCC, TDY'd here, temporarily. 7 MR. : Okay. Thank you for 8 clarifying that. 9 MR. : At MDC Brooklyn. 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 13 circumstances. And you are being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ/OIG? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 111-226/2. The form states, The United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employees 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00118870 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure and security failure." 6 MR. : And just so you're aware, 7 that's what we're writing on everybody that we 8 interview. 9 MR. : Okay. That's fine. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : No problem. 12 MR. "This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer any questions. No disciplinary action 15 will be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future crimina: 18 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 19 proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me." Please 25 read the form, review the form. If you EFTA00118871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 understand, please print your name and sign on 2 the right side. That's over here. That will 3 be your signature. Print your name right below 4 that. Yeah. This is Special Agent 5 , I'm signing as a signature of the 6 Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. 7 MR. : And you understand, this 8 is a voluntary interview, you don't have to 9 answer our questions. You can stop it at any 10 time. Correct? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Perfect. Thank you. 13 MR. : The time is 12:54 p.m. As 14 Senior Special Agent, can you sign as a 15 witness, please? 16 MR. : Sure. 17 MR. • Thank you, sir. 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : This is Senior Special 20 Agent I'm signing as the 21 witness. Okay. 22 MR. : My phone is in there. 23 MR. : Oh. There you go. 24 MR. : Thank you. Before starting 25 the interview, I would like to place you under EFTA00118872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 oath. Mr. can you please raise your 2 right hand? 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 5 truth and nothing but the truth during this 6 interview? 7 MR. : I do. 8 MR. : Thank you. You can put your 9 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 10 understand any questions, and I'll try to 11 repeat it, or rephrase it for you. What is 12 your current home address? 13 MR. : My current home address is 14 . Brooklyn, New 15 York. Apartment . 11209. 16 MR. : 11209. You showed me your 17 credentials. Can you show that to me one more 18 time? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Mr. is showing me his 21 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of 22 Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states 23 , Unit Manager, MCC New York 24 on it. Thank you for that. 25 MR. : Yup. EFTA00118873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : What is your current cell 2 phone number? 3 MR. : My current cell phone number 4 is 5 MR. • : What is your highest level of 6 education? 7 MR. : High school and some 8 college. 9 MR. : What college? 10 MR. : I went to, I studied at a 11 Lincoln Technical Institute, and received a 12 certificate there for HVAC, Heating and 13 Plumbing. 14 MR. : Is that in New York? 15 MR. : That's in Lincoln Tech, as 16 in Union. 17 MR. : Union. Okay. 18 MR. : Union, New Jersey. 19 MR. : I understand. Do you have 20 any military service? 21 MR. : Yes, I do. 22 MR. : What? 23 MR. : Four One years-ae Army, four 24 years active, and three years, nine months 25 National Guard. EFTA00118874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Are you currently still in 2 the military, or 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : -- are you discharged? 5 MR. : Discharged. 6 MR. : Honorable? 7 MR. : Honorable discharge. 8 MR. : And what grade? 9 MR. : E-4. 10 MR. : Thank you for that. Thank 11 you for your service. And what was the enter 12 duty date with the BOP? 13 MR. : March 6, 1994. 14 MR. : And when did you graduate 15 from BOP training? 16 MR. : Hmm. 17 MR. : If you don't remember. 18 year? 19 MR. : Yeah. It was - yeah - 1 20 don't remember. 21 MR. : So, 1994. Around then. 22 MR. : I went in 1994. So, I had 23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after '94. 24 So, right around '94. Some time. 25 MR. : And you mentioned that you're EFTA00118875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the 2 MDC program. 3 MR. : That is correct. 4 MR. : And you were TDY from MCC? 5 MR. : That is correct. 6 MR. : When did you start at the 7 MCC? 8 MR. : I came here, I want to say, 9 around a month and a half ago because they're 10 remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they 11 sent me over here, and there was a -. They 12 gave me a letter of, I want to say it said, not 13 temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until 14 further notice. 15 MR. : And your position in August 16 of 2019 was unit manager, also? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : And which units, again, were 19 you? 20 MR. : Unit. My unit was unit 11. 21 North 11 South. And 9 North at the time. 22 MR. : Do you recall being 23 interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding 24 the Epstein matter in August 2019? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00118876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : What I have in front of me is 2 a 302. It's called a report, of investigation 3 written by the FBI(Indiscernible *00:07:49), 4 and written by the FBI, and I'm not going to 5 read through the whole thing, but we're going 6 to go through a few portions that we need 7 clarification on. And we'll go from there. 8 The paragraph that I'm starting with, it 9 starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry 10 - is 8/16/2019. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Because the interview was 13 on 8/12/2019. 14 MR. : 8/12/2019. During the days" 15 - I'm reading from the memo - "during the days 16 prior to Epstein's death, ran into 17 Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to 18 meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or 19 Thursday. Epstein told he needed to 20 set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp. 21 *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social 22 calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set 23 it up because he was always meeting with his 24 lawyers,—and was never in the SHU. Epstein 25 asked to assist him because his normal EFTA00118877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 unit manager was on leave." Who was his normal 2 unit manager? 3 MR. : His normal unit manager was 4 Unit Manager 5 MR. : ? 6 MR. -: . (Phonetic Sp. 7 *00:08:47). 8 MR. -. . . Okay. 9 MR. : Do you know how to spell 10 that last name? 11 MR. : Her name first name is • 13 MR. -: . Okay. 14 MR. : Thank you. 15 MR. : Yeah. Thank you. 16 MR. "Epstein." Sorry. 17 looked in the system and verified the only call 18 made by Epstein, from the MCC, was the three- 19 minute call given to inmates at the time of the 20 initial intaking to the facility. made 21 the request for Epstein, and obtained a paper 22 print out of his pack and pier—and provided it 23 to Epstein." When you provided to Epstein, was 24 it active? 25 MR. : He has to activate it. The EFTA00118878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we 2 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has 3 to activate it. 4 MR. : Okay. What do they have to 5 do activate it? 6 MR. : What they have to do is, 7 they would have to get on the phone, which, he 8 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a 9 phone call for every 30 days. So, in general 10 population, they would get on the phone, they 11 would record their voice. Once they record, by 12 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then 13 it would actually activate, and then they can't 14 money on the phone, and then have to put money 15 on a phone, then they could use the phone. 16 MR. : So, when you gave him the 17 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet 18 19 MR. : That is correct. 20 MR. : -- he still had to active it. 21 MR. : That is correct. 22 MR. : And is it that he has to put 23 money on it, too? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00118879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 MR. : And was there any way for 2 him to activate it, with his current situation 3 at the time being in the SHU? 4 MR. : Not that particular day, he 5 was requested a phone. It would have took him, 6 to actually activate it in SHU, and add money 7 to it, because when you activate it in Special 8 Housing Unit, let's say he activates it to 9 today. He would have to fill out a green form. 10 Usually, they would do it on the computer. 11 They don't have computers in SHU where they 12 could do it. So, they would have to fill out a 13 green form, which would have to be given to 14 them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. 15 That green form is then filled out by them. 16 And then, it's submitted to our ITS, which then 17 will put it, put the money on the money on his 18 account. I would say it would take, like, 19 three or four days, to a week, for it to 20 actually be activated. Be in his account. 21 MR. : And was he provided a 22 green form? 23 MR. : No. Because at that 24 particular time, I just gave him the pin and 25 pack. That was it. EFTA00118880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, the pin and pack 2 couldn't be used, though, is what you're 3 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then 4 request a green form? 5 MR. : That is correct. When 6 inmates originally come in, we give them their 7 pin and pack then. So, it should have been 8 activated when he first came in the building. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you know why it 10 wasn't? 11 MR. : I wasn't his unit team. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : But it should have been 14 activated then. 15 MR. : Okay. So, but the way 16 that this went, was you provided him with it, 17 but what you provided him, he couldn't have 18 actually used? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : And at what point does he 21 request the green form? 22 MR. : I was going to actually, the 23 next day, give him that green form, because I 24 knew, I knew it was the next step. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00118881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 MR. : He didn't even have to ask 2 for that, because I knew it was the next step. 3 Once again, he wasn't my inmate, but I knew, as 4 unit manager -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- what was the next step. 7 The next step was to give him the green form, 8 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this 9 amount of money on my form. And then, give it 10 to him that way. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Okay. So, the days 13 leading up to Epstein's death, you ran into him 14 and he asked for it. Did you give it to him 15 that day, or did you give it to him the day -? 16 MR. : No. That day. 17 MR. : The 9th? 18 MR. : Yup. 19 MR. : So, the day prior to him 20 being found in his cell? 21 MR. : Yup. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And correction. I'm sorry. 24 Because it's not done by computers, I want to 25 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he EFTA00118882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do 2 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can 3 actually put money over the phone. 4 MR. : Okay. But there was no 5 phone for him to actually do that with? 6 MR. : No. Not, like, as far as a 7 phone to give it to, and let him record it. 8 No. 9 MR. : But being assigned to the 10 SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being 11 in the attorney conference. I mean, would he 12 have the ability to activate that? 13 MR. : In the attorney conference, 14 there was no, there is no phone in there. 15 MR. : In the SHU, though, could 16 he activated it? 17 MR. : In the SHU, we would have to 18 actually give him the phone, the phone would 19 have to be during his validation time. So, 20 that validation times starts in the time that 21 you come in the prison. So, say if he came in 22 on the 19th, his activation time would be the 23 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. 24 So, being that he never used the phone, he 25 would be in there with an activated, probably, EFTA00118883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the next day. 2 MR. : But from within the SHU? 3 MR. : Within the SHU. If he was 4 given a phone. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : If he was given a phone. 7 Yeah. 8 MR. : And they do have phones 9 in the SHU, though. Is that what you're 10 saying? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. 13 MR. : Just a quick question. That 14 you mentioned it was on the 9th? 15 MR. : Well, it says on the days 16 leading up, he asked for it, but you said on 17 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him. 18 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he 19 asked for it? 20 MR. : No. The actual date that he 21 asked for the form, because the same day he 22 asked for a phone, I gave him his -- 23 MR. : Oh. Because yeah, in the 24 interview that you had, you know, a couple days 25 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during EFTA00118884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 the days prior to Epstein's death. So, days 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:13:34). 3 MR. : -- plural. 4 MR. : Right, right, right. 5 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) -- 6 MR. : So, that -. 7 MR. -- if it says either 8 Wednesday or Thursday. 9 MR. : Yeah. It was either 10 Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure what date. 11 MR. : So, not on the date that -- 12 MR. : So, not -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- on the 9th. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Either that Wednesday or 18 that Thursday, he was given that. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Because I like I said, he 21 was always in court, but when he asked me, I 22 came down, and I saw him with his lawyer. Sc, 23 I would, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to 24 set it up. 25 MR. : Oh, he was in court, or was EFTA00118885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he -? 2 MR. : No. He was downstairs. 3 MR. : In attorney conference? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Sorry. So, it was given 7 to him on either Wednesday or Thursday. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Which would possibly -- 10 MR. : That would be 11 MR. : -- August 7th -- 12 MR. -: . -- August 7th -- 13 MR. : or the 8th. 14 MR. -: . -- or the 8th. 15 MR. : That is correct. 16 MR. : And when you gave it to him, 17 was his attorneys present? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Because it states, "Epstein 20 was happy, as were his lawyers, who made a 21 thumbs up gesture." 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Okay. I'm going to, you 24 know, read on. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00118886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : "On Friday, August 9th, 2019, 2 worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as 3 the duty officer. Epstein told he 4 wanted to make a call to his mother, but had 5 not yet been able to set up his pack and pin. 6 , he was ensuring his inmates have 7 family socialization as part of his job, so he 8 allows inmates having technical problems with 9 their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone 10 call. told Epstein his watch was 11 ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way 12 he would be able to help him make a call was if 13 he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier 14 than normal. checked and confirmed 15 that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and 16 pin." 17 MR. : That is correct. 18 MR. "At approximately 6:45 p.m., 19 found Epstein waiting for him, to make 20 that call." Where was he waiting? 21 MR. : In attorney conference, with 22 his lawyers. 23 MR. : Okay. And did you go in 24 there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey, 25 listen, he's waiting for you? EFTA00118887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : No. They notified me in 2 attorney conference that he was ready because 3 they knew I was leaving at 7:00. 4 MR. : Okay. "Epstein was 5 handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs. 6 did not know which cell was Epstein's, 7 and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on 8 G-tier, which prefers for phone calls 9 because inmates are not locked in their cells 10 with the ability to pull the phone cord into 11 their locked cell, and use it to commit self- 12 harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the 13 shower, where the guards are also physically 14 present, with Epstein. used the first 15 outlet on the left, which is the legal line. 16 Epstein provided with the phone number 17 beginning with (347)." Now, before I go on, it 18 says you used the first outlet on the left, 19 legal line. Why the legal line? 20 MR. : Because they have two lines 21 in there. One is a legal line, and one is, 22 where he uses his phone. So, he - let's say if 23 I plugged it in there, he can't use it because 24 his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal 25 line, like we give right now, we give inmates EFTA00118888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to 2 put in that code, in order for them to make 3 that call. So, there's a certain call where 4 the inmates don't have. 5 So, I would have to dial that - at that 6 time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial 7 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello, 8 boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him. 9 Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't 10 You can just dial out on that phone. So, a 11 legal line is set up for us to give inmates 12 legal calls in SHU. 13 MR. : What is the difference 14 between the legal line and the other line? 15 MR. : The -. 16 MR. : Other than the fact that you 17 need the pin. Is there a difference between 18 both of them? 19 MR. : Yes. The difference is an 20 inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and 21 that's social call. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : For him to make any social 24 calls to his family, which is, they're 25 recorded. That one is recorded. The legal EFTA00118889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal 2 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be 3 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this 4 is Mr. , I have your client here. Boom, 5 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here's the phone, and 6 we give him the phone. And then, we don't stay 7 within that vicinity to listen to their phone 8 calls. And that's the same phone that they 9 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them 10 that call, we actually give it to them 11 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give 12 it to them, we give them the phone right in 13 front of us. 14 MR. : It states, about that, 15 "Epstein told he wanted to make a call 16 to his mother." 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : But that was not a legal 19 call, though. 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : It was a personal call. 22 MR. : That is correct. 23 MR. : How come the legal line? 24 MR. : Because if he didn't have 25 something set up, how would he make a phone EFTA00118890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 call? And this inmate been with us for a 2 while. And me, personally, if he was my 3 inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why 4 his wasn't set up, I don't know. And I will 5 give you a good example. R. Kelly's up there, 6 his is set up. Why his wasn't set up, my job 7 as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an 8 inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. 9 So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a 10 phone call? 11 He's been asking for this phone call for a 12 while. From his unit manager, from everybody, 13 and I'm, like, why does this inmate don't have 14 his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm 15 not his unit team. That's not my 16 responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, 17 it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty 18 officer, and I know that I verified that he 19 didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's 20 just like any other inmate. It's only right to 21 make sure that he stays in contact with his 22 family, because that's part of the program 23 statement of inmates visiting their families 24 and keeping in contact with their family 25 members. He didn't have a line to make it on. EFTA00118891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it 2 on a legal line. 3 MR. : Did you have a conference 4 with anyone above you, to get permission for 5 that, or was it just a decision made by you? 6 MR. : I made a decision because, 7 as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00 8 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I 9 wouldn't call the warden at home and say, hey, 10 can I give him this legal call? Because that's 11 what the duty officer job is. The duty officer 12 is there representing the warden while she's 13 not there. So, basically, I'm over the 14 lieutenants, I'm over -. They would have to 15 contact me. When incidents happen, they have 16 to contact the duty officer. Then I contact 17 the region, the duty officer. 18 MR. : Oh, I see. 19 MR. : So, I don't contact the 20 warden. I contact the regional duty officer. 21 MR. : So, as the duty officer, you 22 report to the region? 23 MR. : That is correct. 24 MR. : Do you recall having a 25 conversation, though, with the captain, and him EFTA00118892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 providing you the authority to do it? 2 MR. : No. Because with unit 3 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone 4 call is not the captain's responsibility. 5 MR. : No, no, no. We had 6 information that you actually spoke with him in 7 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the 8 call. 9 MR. -: 10 MR. : Is that true? Yeah. 11 MR. : I don't - it's been so long 12 - I don't recall. I could have. But at the 13 same time, even if he would have said yes or 14 no, I would have gave him the call. Because I 15 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- because my, myself, just 18 being unit team, inmates, it is our 19 responsibility as a unit team, and our program 20 statement, that we make sure they keep in 21 contact with their family members, or whoever. 22 Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have 23 to. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : We have inmates that are - EFTA00118893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact, 2 inmates that indigent cndogcn (Phonetic Sp. 3 *00:20:19), that don't have no money. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : How will we give them a 6 phone call? We give them the phone call the 7 same way. Inmates who don't have money, 8 they're indigent cndogcn. So, if they need a 9 phone call, we have to give them a phone call. 10 We can't just not give them a phone call, but 11 we would call the number, give them the phone 12 call, let them speak to - and we give them a 13 15-minute phone call. 14 MR. : Is that on the legal 15 line, as well? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Because if they don't have 19 no money, -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- there's no way to put 22 money on it, but we don't give them money. 23 They're indigent cndogcn. And that will be on 24 their -- 25 MR. : What is the word you're EFTA00118894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ending? 2 MR. indigent cndogcn. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So, that will be on their -. 5 We would look on their money form. And 6 basically, any - what they - how they determine 7 if you're indigent cndogcn, they go by how much 8 money you received in the last six months. 9 They go by six months. So, if an inmate only 10 received, I think it's, I want to say under $50 11 bucks, that inmate is indigent cndogcn. It's 12 now in the unit team's responsibility. Also, 13 we not just give them phone calls. An indigent 14 cndogcn inmate could get up to five legal 15 stamps, every month, and if he wants to do his 16 lawyer, he can get up to five every week. 17 MR. : Now -- 18 MR. : Indigent Cnedege•n inmates. 19 MR. : -- so, back to 20 though. Does that - from what you said - does 21 that mean, like, it wasn't even him, and his 22 kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility, 23 to tell you that you were authorized? 24 MR. : I think me and had a 25 rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there. EFTA00118895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. 2 So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, 3 if I did ask him, it was me giving him a 4 courtesy. I would have did that to any 5 captain. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : If you was the captain. 8 It's just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give 9 this guy a phone call. This, this, and that. 10 could have said to me, oh, I don't think 11 that's a good idea. And I would have said, 12 okay. Probably would have went to somebody 13 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the 14 same time, once again, there's nobody there 15 after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would 16 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm 17 going to give him a phone call. 18 MR. : Okay. And you don't 19 remember, though, having that conversation 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : -- with , and being 22 23 MR. : And I -- 24 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 25 *00:22:13). EFTA00118896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. and I could have. I 2 could have had that conversation, because Like 3 I said, we talk on a regular basis. So, I 4 could have. 5 MR. : Just bringing yourself 6 back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet 7 with him, the attorneys are in there. They 8 give you the thumbs up, and you're going back, 9 and you go into an elevator. Do you remember 10 at all being in the elevator with you? 11 MR. : No. I remember being 12 around because - and the reason why I know that 13 - is because doesn't have a lieutenant 14 to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9 15 working there that day. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : I do remember that. So, if 18 you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or 19 because you have to have a GS-11 and above. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : So, he was there that day. 22 I do remember that. 23 MR. : Okay. But you just don't 24 remember that conversation? 25 MR. : That is correct. EFTA00118897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. Perfect. 2 MR. : Now that the call was given 3 on the legal line, was there any steps to make 4 sure, because it's supposed to be recorded, you 5 know, an inmate call, a social call, is 6 supposed to be recorded. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : He said he's calling his 9 mother. Was there any steps that you should 10 have taken to ensure that that call was 11 monitored somehow? 12 MR. : The only way we monitor it 13 is, I made the phone call, hello, how you 14 doing? I don't say, hey, is this his mother, 15 because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this 16 his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his 17 mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, 18 I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 19 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 20 minutes. When he's done with the phone call, 21 disconnect, and that's it. 22 So, we don't know. Let's say, right now, 23 I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. 24 For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or 25 whatever. Do we know there's a three-way, or EFTA00118898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 anything? We don't know. So, we sit down. We 2 time it. 15 minutes. And we're done. There's 3 no way to record that phone. There's no way to 4 pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can 5 get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, 6 at that particular time. 7 That was in place since I've been at MCC. 8 Has anything changed? The only thing changed 9 since I've been there is they took out all of 10 the legal lines, and they put them in one 11 particular area. They took them all out of 12 SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, 13 and they changed the code for that particular 14 reason. 15 MR. : What -? 16 MR. : And that wasn't after 17 Epstein. It took a while. 18 MR. : So, they do it in 19 response because people were doing that, was 20 what you mean? 21 MR. : The reason -. I'm one of 22 the ones who actually brought it to the 23 captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible 24 *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was 25 (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a EFTA00118899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even 2 after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was 3 there, she - and anybody would say, okay, 4 inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone 5 restriction. 6 But remember, the warden is the only one 7 who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone 8 call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can 9 you give him a phone call? He's on a phone 10 restriction. There's only two ways you could 11 give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you 12 can't give it to him on a social, you give it 13 to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs 14 the cop out. She approves it. Well, any 15 warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not 16 trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how 17 it's done. That's how I've seen it done. 18 Once we get it approved, we give the 19 inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, 20 hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the 21 chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - 22 give him two minutes - hey, you have two 23 minutes left and that's it. Take the phone 24 from the inmate. We don't know that person is 25 EFTA00118900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So, you are 2 supposed to 3 MR. : -- because (Indiscernible 4 *00:25:32). 5 MR. : -- you're supposed to sit 6 there with them, though. Correct? 7 MR. : No. There's nothing saying 8 that. That's just, like, sit there and do 9 what? 10 MR. : Oh, so, everything that 11 we've been told is that, if you give the person 12 a call, on a legal line, if it's not the 13 attorney, you're supposed to sit there and 14 monitor the call, because it's not being 15 recorded. 16 MR. : Well, they -. And since 17 I've been there, and that's the reason why I 18