EFTA00083828.pdf

j782epsC kjc UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, New York, N.Y. v. 19 Cr. 490(RMB) 4 JEFFREY EPSTEIN, 5 Defendant. 6 x Conference 7 July 8, 2019 1:20 p.m. 8 9 Before: 10 HON. HENRY B. PITMAN, 11 Magistrate Judge 12 13 APPEARANCES 14 GEOFFREY S. BERMAN United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York BY: 16 17 es Attorneys 18 STEPTOE & JOHNSON, LLP Attorneys for Defendant 19 BY: REID H. WEINGARTEN 20 MARTIN G. WEINBERG Attorney for Defendant 21 MARC FERNICH 22 Attorney for Defendant 23 Also Present: 24 Special Agent FBI 25 Detective , NYPD SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083828  j782epsC kjc (Case called) THE DEPUTY CLERK: Counsel, please state your name for the record. 4 MR. : Good afternoon, your Honor. For the 5 government, , and 6 With us are Special Agent of the F.B.I. and 7 Detective , NYPD task force officer. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. WEINGARTEN: Good afternoon, your Honor. For 10 Jeffrey Epstein, Reid Weingarten from the law firm of Steptoe & 11 Johnson. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Good afternoon, your Honor. Martin 13 Weinberg. I'm an attorney from Boston, Massachusetts; and, 14 with your Honor's permission, I will be filing a pro hac vice 15 to represent Mr. Epstein. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. FERNICH: Good afternoon, your Honor. Marc 18 Fernich, New York, New York, also for Mr. Epstein. 19 THE COURT: All right. I have spoken to Judge Berman. 20 The matter has been referred to me for the initial appearance, 21 arraignment, and bail. 22 Mr. Epstein, my name is Magistrate Judge Pitman. The 23 purpose of this proceeding is to inform you of certain rights 24 that you have, to inform you of the charges against you, to 25 consider whether counsel should be appointed for you, and to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083829  j782epsC kjc decide under what conditions, if any, you should be released. Can I have the date and time of arrest, please? MR. : Yes, your Honor. The defendant was 4 arrested on Saturday, July 6, at approximately 5:30 p.m. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 Mr. Epstein, you have the right to remain silent. You 7 are not required to make any statements. Even if you have made 8 any statements to the authorities, you need not make any 9 further statements. Anything you do say can be used against 10 you. 11 You have the right to be released, either 12 conditionally or unconditionally, pending trial unless I find 13 that there are no conditions or combination of conditions that 14 would reasonably assure your presence in court and the safety 15 of the community. 16 You have the right to be represented by counsel during 17 all court proceedings, including this one, and during all 18 questioning by the authorities. If you cannot afford an 19 attorney, I will appoint one to represent you. 20 It is my understanding that you are being represented 21 by retained counsel. I want to advise you that the right to 22 the appointment of counsel is an ongoing right that you possess 23 throughout these proceedings. If at any time you are unable to 24 continue with retained counsel for financial reasons, you can 25 apply to the court at any time for the appointment of counsel. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083830  j782epsC kjc Do you understand that? THE DEFENDANT: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Epstein, you are charged in an 4 indictment in two counts. 5 Count One charges you with a sex trafficking 6 conspiracy in violation of Title 18 United States Code § 371. 7 Count Two charges with you with the substantive 8 offense of sex trafficking in violation of Title 18 United 9 States Code § 1591. 10 Mr. Weingarten, are you going to be lead counsel here 11 today? 12 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Weingarten, have you received a copy 14 of the indictment? 15 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Have you reviewed it with your client? 17 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Do you waive its reading? 19 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Epstein, how do you plead? 21 THE DEFENDANT: Not guilty, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Because the defendant has been indicted, 23 there will be no preliminary hearing, and that takes us to the 24 question of bail. In that regard, I have received the Pretrial 25 Services report. I have also received a letter from the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083831  j782epsC kjc government dated July 8, 2019. I take it all counsel have the same documents? MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I will hear from the government first, and 5 then I will hear from defense counsel. 6 MR. : Yes, your Honor. 7 The government intends to seek detention, and I am 8 happy to explain the reasons why. Would the court prefer that 9 i speak from the table or from the podium? 10 THE COURT: Whatever your pleasure is. 11 MR. : Your Honor, the defendant poses an 12 extraordinary risk of flight and danger presented by him. 13 Given the charges and the characteristics of the defendant, he 14 simply cannot reasonably be expected to appear in court if he 15 is granted bail. Accordingly, the government joins the 16 recommendation of Pretrial Services that the defendant be 17 detained pending trial for a number of reasons. 18 Starting with the conduct alleged, the defendant is 19 charged with trafficking minors for sex acts, as the court 20 explained, in violation of 18 United States Code E. 591, and is 21 charged with a count of conspiracy to traffic minors for sex 22 acts in violation of 18 U.S.C. 371. 23 In particular, the indictment charges that the 24 defendant engaged in a years-long scheme to sexually abuse 25 underage girls, paying minor girls to themselves be abused, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083832  j782epsC kjc also paying certain victims to recruit other girls to be subject to the defendant's sexual abuse. The indictment alleges that the defendant undertook 4 this conduct at at least two locations, including his mansion 5 in Manhattan and his estate in Palm Beach, Florida. In both 6 locations, victims were initially recruited to provide massages 7 to the defendant, which would be performed nude or partially 8 nude, would become increasingly sexual in nature, and would 9 typically include one or more sex acts, including contact with 10 the victims' genitals. These victims, who were often 11 particularly vulnerable, were as as 14, and the defendant 12 knew he was abusing underage girls. The indictment further 13 alleges that the defendant perpetrated these crimes by working 14 with others, including employees and associates who facilitated 15 these abusive encounters. 16 Regarding the defendant himself, your Honor, he is 17 extraordinarily wealthy, mobile, and unattached to the Southern 18 District of New York. He maintains at least six residences in 19 the United States and abroad, including the ownership of a 20 private island in the U.S. Virgin Islands and a residence in 21 Paris, France. Among other things, the defendant owns two 22 private jets and routinely uses them to travel abroad. He is a 23 man of nearly infinite means, your Honor; and, as set forth in 24 our submission, he has tremendous incentives to use those means 25 to flee prosecution. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083833  7 j782epsC kjc The government notes as an initial matter that this is a presumption case because sex trafficking is charged; and, moreover, each of the four factors to be considered in the 4 detention analysis strongly militates towards pretrial 5 detention. 6 So starting with the nature and seriousness of the 7 offense, as previously discussed, the nature and circumstances 8 of the crime are the most serious crime that this court sees. 9 The defendant is alleged to have spent years sexually abusing 10 minors in multiple locations and with dozens of victims. 11 The seriousness of the charge is also reflected in the 12 potential penalties, which include up to 45 combined years of 13 incarceration on Counts One and Two, and the likelihood of a 14 substantial period of incarceration is supported by the fact 15 that the government's evidence is strong. There are multiple 16 individual identified victims in the indictment, numerous 17 specified overt acts, and dozens of overall victims alleged. 18 In order to protect the privacy of the victims, your 19 Honor, I'm not going to go into detail about particular 20 victims, but we can say that information provided by victims 21 has been detailed, it has been credible, and it has been 22 corroborated by other witnesses and contemporaneous documents 23 and records, including from a recent search of the defendant's 24 Manhattan mansion, as I will discuss further in a moment. 25 Separately, your Honor, in just the last 36 hours, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083834  j782epsC kjc that is, post charge, we have been contacted by multiple attorneys and several additional individuals who have identified themselves as victims and are interested in speaking 4 with the government, none of whom the government has previously 5 spoken with. 6 Your Honor, the defendant is 66 years old. He is 7 charged with appalling crimes, and those charges are supported 8 by significant evidence, including victim and witness testimony 9 and damning record evidence. He faces the very real prospect 10 of spending the rest of his life in prison. He has every 11 motivation in the world to flee, and he has the means to do it. 12 And I will note for the court that this is a case 13 where the government has really put its money where its mouth 14 is on the risk of flight. This district took extraordinary 15 efforts to maintain the covert status of its investigation for 16 many months due to the risk of flight of the defendant -- not a 17 single media report, not a single public statement, no appeals 18 for victims to come forward because of precisely the flight 19 risks we are discussing now. 20 Turning to the characteristics of the defendant, your 21 Honor, some individuals who face significant charges lack the 22 means to flee. Not this defendant. As set forth in the 23 government's submission, in the defendant's most recent sex 24 offender registration, he lists six residences worth tens or 25 hundreds of millions of dollars, including a residence abroad. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083835  j782epsC kjc The defendant has refused to answer any questions about his income or assets for the Pretrial Services report, so the scope of his wealth and his assets remains entirely 4 concealed to the government and to the court. But the 5 defendant certainly has access to endless means to flee, 6 including two private jets. He has no meaningful family ties, 7 and any argument that his properties would keep him in the 8 United States ignores his ability to simply leave those 9 properties behind in favor of moving beyond the reach of U.S. 10 authorities to live off his extensive wealth abroad, extensive 11 wealth, I should add, that the court doesn't even have any 12 accounting of. He travels abroad extensively, has a residence 13 in France, and all of those factors further contribute to the 14 risk of flight. 15 With respect to danger and obstruction, again, this is 16 a presumption case, and not only is the defendant charged with 17 the sexual abuse of minors, he has previously pled guilty to 18 solicitation of an underage girl. This court knows that 19 defendants are routinely detained in this district when facing 20 such charges and that this is not an unusual position for the 21 government to take. 22 It is further concerning that there are credible 23 allegations from the prior investigation that the defendant or 24 his agents engaged in witness tampering and harassment, and in 25 fact there is evidence that he was contemplating pleading SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083836  IC j782epsC kjc guilty to that kind of offense in Florida. Those allegations include verbal harassment, evasion of legal process, and forcing off the road the father of an individual relevant to 4 that investigation. 5 THE COURT: Can you elaborate on that last point about 6 forcing somebody off the road? 7 MR. : Your Honor, what we have is the 8 record evidence from an underlying civil dispute in Florida 9 that discusses this incident and discusses it in the context of 10 a potential plea of the defendant to obstruction or harassment 11 charges. The government sets before this court that if the 12 defendant was willing to undertake such measure simply as a 13 result of an investigation, the potential for dangerous and 14 obstructive activity in an indicted case is alarming and very 15 real. 16 Despite having been previously convicted of a sex 17 offense involving an underage victim and being a registered sex 18 offender, the defendant has continued to maintain a vast trove 19 of lewd photography of -looking women or girls at his 20 mansion. Your Honor, pursuant to judicially authorized 21 warrants, law enforcement agents searched his home on Saturday 22 and found at least hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of sexually 23 suggestive photographs of nude females, many of whom appear to 24 be underage. 25 I also want to note that the search revealed specific SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083837  j782epsC kjc evidence from his home consistent with victim accounts. Ever the room where the abuse occurred, your Honor, the massage room, was still set up in the same way it was 15 years ago, 4 with a massage table and sex paraphernalia. 5 And with respect to the photographs 6 THE COURT: When you say the evidence was consistent 7 with victim accounts, is it limited to the massage table and 8 massage room or is there something else? 9 MR. : Descriptions of the massage room and 10 the massage table, that's correct, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 12 MR. : With respect to the photographs, your 13 Honor, some of those were found in a locked safe which also 14 held electronic disks with labels that included the words 15 Miscellaneous Nudes 1" and "Girl Pics Nude." 16 Your Honor, this is not an individual who has left his 17 past behind. He is a continuing danger to the community and an 18 extraordinary risk of flight and, for those reasons, the 19 government joins the pretrial recommendation that the defendant 20 be detained pending trial. 21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 22 Mr. Weingarten. 23 MR. WEINGARTEN: Thank you, your Honor. I will use 24 the podium, if that's okay. 25 THE COURT: That's fine. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083838  12 j782epsC kjc MR. WEINGARTEN: So your Honor, I would like to start by providing some context, and then I'm going to make a suggestion as to how we proceed. 4 The beginning here is 2005 in Florida. That's when an 5 allegation was received by the local police that Mr. Epstein 6 was engaged in sexual conduct for money, prostitution. 7 Thereafter, there was a very sophisticated three-year 8 investigation by law enforcement, including locals and feds, 9 into Mr. Epstein's conduct. Numerous girls were interviewed, 10 employees were interviewed, and it is fair to say that a 11 significant segment of the law enforcement community in Florida 12 thought what we had in hand was simple prostitution. There was 13 no coercion. There were no threats. There was no violence. 14 And it is also fair to say that a significant portion of the 15 law enforcement community in Florida believed that a local 16 misdemeanor was the appropriate sanction. 17 Now, it is also -- 18 THE COURT: Did you represent Mr. Epstein in the 19 Florida investigation? 20 MR. WEINGARTEN: No, but I'm familiar with the 21 records. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. WEINGARTEN: It is also true that there was a 24 contrary view largely taken by the feds, and what ensued was a 25 complex set of discussions and negotiations and finally an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083839  j782epsC kjc agreement, an agreement that was consummated and agreed to all the way up to main justice at a very, very high level. The agreement involved a plea in state court to 4 soliciting an underaged girl, which would require registration, 5 compensation paid to alleged victims, and an NPA from the feds, 6 in other words, a declination by the federal government, an 7 agreement that was approved all the way up in main justice and 8 it sure seemed like a global solution at the time to everyone 9 involved, including my client. 10 What happened since then? Mr. Epstein continued a 11 life of success, generosity, creativity and, more important, a 12 law-abiding life from 2008 forward. How do we know? Because 13 when you are in registration the way he is, every single night 14 his whereabouts are known. There is constant reporting, 15 constant monitoring, and absolutely, to our knowledge, no 16 complaints by anybody from that moment forward about his 17 conduct until we have arrived in court here. 18 Now, what has happened in court from that moment? 19 There have been lawsuits, many of them ludicrous, dismissed out 20 of hand. But when something like this happens, a lot of stuff 21 comes out of the woodwork, and there were lawsuits that 22 Mr. Epstein settled also in the normal course. 23 There was one particular litigation that leads to this 24 occasion, and that is, under the Crime Victims Rights Act, that 25 act simply says that victims have a right to be consulted by SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083840  11 j782epsC kjc the United States, and there are alleged victims in this case who complain that they were not, and there has been extensive litigation in the Southern District of Florida before 4 Judge Marra on that very subject. In fact, the judge concluded 5 that the prosecutors from the Southern District of Florida did 6 not adequately notify some of the victims about the ongoing 7 discussions and the consummation of the deal and, in 8 particular, the NPA. The United States took the position that 9 they had no responsibility to do so, that they had treated the 10 victims properly, and that matter continues to this day. 11 The consequences of that matter are overwhelming, 12 because the judge suggested, I think three times, that the NPA, 13 the declination, could be voided. And we think about that for 14 a second. So a defendant negotiates what he thinks is a global 15 solution with the feds. He does his time -- 16 THE COURT: Does the nonprosecution agreement in 17 Florida -- the nonprosecution agreements in the Southern 18 District routinely say they are limited to the Southern 19 District of New York. 20 MR. WEINGARTEN: Obviously -- 21 THE COURT: Is there a similar provision in the 22 Florida agreement? 23 MR. WEINGARTEN: I don't want to misstate. It is not 24 before me. It is obviously going to be an important part of 25 the pretrial motions. What is for sure is that there was - SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083841  j782epsC kjc the negotiation with the Southern District included negotiations with main justice. What's also true is the investigation extended into the Southern District of New York 4 and elsewhere in terms of girls being interviewed. 5 So obviously your question is relevant and will be 6 part of the pretrial litigation for sure. But what matters 7 here and for now is there certainly was a belief that there was 8 a global solution based upon the facts on the ground. 9 THE COURT: Have you seen the Florida nonprosecution 10 agreement? 11 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes. 12 THE COURT: And -- 13 MR. WEINGARTEN: I don't have it before me. I don't 14 want to make a specific representation and not be completely 15 accurate. 16 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Go ahead. 17 MR. WEINGARTEN: The consequences of this are huge in 18 that if in fact there is a negotiation with a defendant, the 19 defendant does his time, the defendant pays his victim, and the 20 defendant spends ten years on the registration list and 21 prosecutors don't adequately notify the victims, how in the 22 world can that deal be undone? Every prosecutor in the world 23 has to oppose that possibility. No defense attorney in their 24 right mind would negotiate a deal with that potential 25 consequence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083842  16 j782epsC kjc So this is a huge problem for the department and what solution ensues, and I suggest the solution that ensued is this indictment. To us, this indictment is essentially a do-over. 4 The allegations are from 2002 to 2005. This is old stuff. 5 This is ancient stuff. This is the very stuff that was 6 investigated by the feds in Florida, a sophisticated three-year 7 investigation. Two of the alleged victims in this indictment 8 are from Florida. The indictment here tracks the conduct that 9 was investigated in Florida back before the agreement was 10 reached. Obviously we need to get discovery to find out just 11 how inextricably linked the investigation back in Florida is 12 with what's going on here. We do know we are talking about 13 ancient conduct. We do know we are talking about facts that 14 are from 2002 to 2005, facts that were known to the United 15 States prosecutors before they entered into the NPA, the 16 declination. This is essentially a redo. That's how it feels 17 to us. And if we are correct, that should chill the blood of 18 every defense attorney who negotiates a deal with the United 19 States. 20 In addition, we have the central allegation here is 21 trafficking, and obviously it is useful and relevant to make 22 inquiry as to why the trafficking law was passed. It is to 23 cover abhorrent conduct, where girls are kidnapped, they 24 are fooled, they are forced to come usually to unfamiliar 25 places, work in brothels where they service 15, 20 guys in a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083843  17 j782epsC kjc day. They can't leave or else their families are threatened. This is dreadful conduct. I remember an occasion when the Attorney General Eric 4 Holder and I think Director Comey had a press conference 5 establishing this as a law enforcement priority. Every 6 sensible person in the world would think that this is the exact 7 right thing law enforcement should do. 8 This is not this case. There was no violence. There 9 was no coercion. There was no intimidation. There is no 10 deception. The bottom line, if you take a fair look at the 11 facts of this case as alleged and in the record, you may come 12 to the conclusion there was prostitution involved and maybe a 13 lot of it, but that doesn't mean that the person involved is 14 pedophile, a rapist or, heaven knows, a trafficker. Just -- 15 THE COURT: Well, if the women involved were under 18, 16 isn't that rape? 17 MR. WEINGARTEN: My understanding -- 18 THE COURT: Legally they are incapable of consent, are 19 they not? 20 MR. WEINGARTEN: Well, it could be statutory rape. 21 But what I am talking about is trafficking and why the 22 statute was passed, and obviously the statute was passed to 23 protect women from the horrors that occur in such settings, and 24 that is light years removed to what happened in this case. 25 So what about bond? I would suggest that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083844  18 j782epsC kjc traditional issues that we look at, the issues involved, let's start with that, we believe we have extremely powerful motions relating to the government seeking two bites at the apple and 4 for due process reasons, double jeopardy reasons, we don't 5 think that will stand. We also think fundamentally what's at 6 issue here is not trafficking. That's not why the statute was 7 passed. 8 The risk to others, what we have here is at least ten 9 years post incarceration in the State of Florida of conduct 10 that has never been challenged by anyone until now. The 11 registration requirements are onerous. He is under constant 12 surveillance. Law enforcement knows, if they choose to look, 13 exactly where he is at any time. 14 The risk of flight, what is true is from the moment of 15 Judge Marra's litigation in the Southern District of Florida, 16 the defendant knew that there would be challenges to the NPA. 17 From 2013 on, there were representations made in court that 18 that challenge was ongoing, and the defendant never sought to 19 flee, never anticipated a time when he would flee, continued to 20 live his law-abiding life. So the risk of flight, I think, is 21 dramatically overstated in the government's presentation. 22 I think the traditional remedies that the court finds 23 appropriate in case after case -- a large cash bond; passport 24 relinquished; waiving extradition; a bracelet on; some form of 25 supervision that is adequate to guarantee his appearance, it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083845  19 j782epsC kjc will be child's play to find that; bonds from other people, surety bonds from other people. Because we have not had an opportunity to see our 4 client until today and because we have just received the 5 government's submission, what we would like to do is have the 6 opportunity to sit down and put together a bail package, a 7 coherent bail package in writing and provide it to the court. 8 I would point out on the obstruction allegation 9 THE COURT: Let me ask you this -- sorry to interrupt 10 you -- do you want to adjourn the detention hearing? Under the 11 statute, you have up to three days. 12 MR. WEINGARTEN: What I would like is to have until 13 the end of the week to provide something in writing, a specific 14 recommendation in writing. 15 THE COURT: So you want to adjourn a determination of 16 bail? 17 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Is there any objection to that from the 19 government? The defendant is detained in the interim under 20 3142(f). 21 MR. WEINGARTEN: Right. 22 MR. : Your Honor, we certainly don't object 23 if the defendant is consenting to detention with leave to make 24 a further application. 25 I think the government would like at least a brief SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083846  20 j782epsC kjc opportunity to respond to some of those points, to the extent that the defense is arguing that Mr. Epstein should be granted bail as a general matter and the court is going to consider 4 those arguments. 5 THE COURT: Well, the court always considers the 6 parties' arguments. 7 But let me just come back to Mr. Weingarten for a 8 minute. Mr. Weingarten, under the Bail Reform Act you are 9 entitled to a continuance of three days, which I guess would 10 take us to Thursday. 11 MR. WEINGARTEN: Right. 12 THE COURT: The other alternative, I guess, if you 13 want to de facto extend that three days is consent to detention 14 without prejudice. 15 MR. WEINGARTEN: We estimated that by Thursday we 16 could get you something in writing and then appear back before 17 you at your convenience. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to schedule it -- well, 19 I think Thursday's proceedings right now would be in front of 20 Judge Berman unless he wants to send it back to me for bail, 21 but do you want to put this down for detention hearing on 22 Thursday? 23 MR. WEINGARTEN: Can I make one point that I don't 24 want to forget that I think is extremely important? 25 THE COURT: Go ahead. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083847  j782epsC kjc MR. WEINGARTEN: The last thing we did today was refuse to answer questions. What we said at Pretrial is heaven forbid we make a mistake, and in terms of assets, we wanted to 4 be precise. So there was no refusal. There was a request for 5 time to supplement. That was accepted. And that's part of the 6 reason we want to sit down and make sure we get our information 7 correct to provide to the court. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. WEINGARTEN: Can I make one other point? 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. WEINGARTEN: In terms of the obstruction, I think 12 it is such a significant part of our argument that the conduct 13 at issue is ancient. It is from 2002 to 2005. So obviously if 14 the defendant is a threat to obstruct justice, the court needs 15 to take that into account. The allegations raised -- and I 16 just read them briefly because we just got the government's 17 letter -- relate to negotiations between the feds and the 18 defendant. Back when the Southern District of Florida was 19 attempting to find an appropriate remedy, there were 20 discussions going back and forth: Can we squeeze you into this 21 statute? And it didn't work, and it didn't work because there 22 is no factual basis. That is the reference to the alleged 23 obstruction. Not obstructive acts. Instead, the feds in 24 Florida agreed to the plea to the state offense because there 25 was no appropriate statute that covered conduct that was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083848  22 j782epsC kjc proveable. That is the answer to the obstruction issue. THE COURT: All right. So you want to adjourn the detention hearing until Thursday? 4 MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes. 5 THE COURT: All right. Is there any objection to that 6 from the government? I think under the statute he is entitled 7 to three days. 8 MR. : That is, of course, fine, your Honor. 9 I think we would like just a very brief opportunity to 10 respond to some of those arguments so that they don't sort of 11 hang with the court for three days unresponded to. 12 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 13 MR. : Just very briefly, your Honor, I 14 think a lot of that discussion was entirely orthogonal to the 15 issues here. 16 But just very briefly, with respect to the charges 17 here, there is simply no force required for underage victims. 18 A grand jury has properly returned an indictment, and these are 19 fact issues that are being presented in large part. 20 Certainly the concept of child prostitution is, 21 frankly, offensive and not recognized in federal law. The idea 22 that children can consent to sex and be prostitutes is beyond 23 the realm of federal law which contemplates trafficking, which 24 is what has been charged here. Mr. Weingarten is free to argue 25 to a jury that trafficking minors was only statutory rape or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083849  23 j782epsC kjc that those victims weren't treated as badly as the parade of horribles he has in mind. But for now the question is whether the defendant's attendance can be assured. 4 And with respect to the nonprosecution agreement 5 THE COURT: I'm not sure I would refer to something as 6 only statutory rape. The use of the word "only" before 7 "statutory rape" I'm not sure sits well. But go ahead. 8 MR. : And I agree, your Honor. 9 With respect to the actual substance, the Southern 10 District of Florida has represented in public filings that the 11 nonprosecution agreement was limited to the Southern District 12 of Florida, and we can litigate that in a motion to dismiss, 13 but it is simply not relevant here. 14 With respect to the statute of limitations, 15 Mr. Weingarten says that the conduct is old. He did not say 16 that that it is beyond the statute of limitations because it is 17 not. 18 And, finally, it is not the same conduct. Some of the 19 conduct overlaps. Some of the conduct does not. And in 20 particular, one of the two counts of the indictment is 21 predicated exclusively on New York victims. 22 So for all of those reasons, we just ask the court to 23 consider those responses as it awaits the defendant's filings 24 later this week. 25 MR. WEINGARTEN: Can I just make one point to clarify? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083850  L^ j782epsC kjc THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. WEINGARTEN: On the statutory rape thing, I had t senior moment. There is no statutory rape because there is no 4 penetration, and that is the answer to that question. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 We will set this down for a detention hearing on 7 Thursday, July 11, for the continuation of the detention 8 hearing. Thursday, July 11, at 2 p.m. 9 The defendant is detained at least until the 10 continuation of the detention hearing pursuant to 18 United 11 States Code 3142(f). 12 I have been advised by Judge Berman that he wants to 13 see counsel right after these proceedings. Judge Berman's 14 courtroom is 17B. So counsel and Mr. Epstein should go to 178. 15 All right. Anything else from the government? 16 MR. : Your Honor, ordinarily we would ask 17 to exclude speedy trial time, but I think because we are going 18 directly to Judge Berman, we have no such application. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Weingarten, anything else? 20 MR. WEINGARTEN: No, thank you, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Weingarten, anything else? 22 MR. WEINGARTEN: No, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. Thank you all. 24 oOo 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. EFTA00083851