EFTA00059591.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 1, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00059591  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00059592  3 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is and I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 : Thank you. 8 : This interview with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - or 10 lieutenant - is being conducted 11 as part of an official U.S. Department of 12 Justice Office of the Inspector General 13 investigation. Today's date is September 1, 14 2021, and the time is 3:08 p.m. This interview 15 is being conducted at the Metropolitan 16 Correctional Center - MCC - in New York, New 17 York. Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 18 This interview will be recorded 19 by me, SSA Could everyone 20 please identify themselves for the record and 21 spell your last name. To start, again I am DOJ 22 OIG Senior Special Agent II 23 24 : I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 25 D-A-N-I-E-L. These are my EFTA00059593  4 1 credentials. 2 : Thank you. Lieutenant 3 Roberto. Last name is G-R-I-J-A-L-V- 4 A. 5 : Thank you, sir. This is 6 an official DOJ investigation into the death of 7 inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 8 circumstances. And you're being asked to 9 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 10 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 11 the DOJ OIG? 12 : Yes. 13 : Thank you, sir. This is 14 the United States Department of Justice Office 15 of the Inspector General Warnings and 16 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 17 Information on a Voluntary Basis form. It 18 says, you are being asked to provide 19 information as part of an investigation being 20 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 21 General. This investigation is being conducted 22 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 23 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 24 performance failure and security failure. This 25 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do EFTA00059594  5 1 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 2 action will be taken against you if you choose 3 not to answer questions. Any statement you 4 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 5 criminal proceeding or agency disciplinary 6 proceeding or both. And there is a waiver 7 section and it says, I understand the Warnings 8 and Assurances stated above and I am willing to 9 make a statement and answer questions. No 10 promises or threats have been made to me and no 11 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 12 against me. You want to take a second - a 13 minute - to look at this? And if you agree, 14 there's an employee section and there's an 15 employee's name. Sign the employee signature 16 and print where it says employee's name. 17 : Oh. That's it? 18 : Print your name right below 19 that. 20 : Okay. The date and time 21 also? 22 : I can fill that out. 23 : All right. 24 : Thank you, sir, for 25 signing and printing your name. All right. EFTA00059595  6 1 I'm signing as the Special Agent. And I am 2 printing my name, 3 can you please fill out the rest of this form? 4 : This is I'm 5 signing as witness. 6 : All right. Did you 7 understand the OIG form? 8 : Yes, sir. 9 : Great. Before we start 10 the interview, I'd like to place you under 11 oath. , can you please raise your 12 right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth and 13 nothing but the truth during this interview? 14 : Yes. 15 : Thank you, sir. All 16 right. Is it correct that you were interviewed 17 regarding the Epstein matter on August 19, 18 2019, and again by myself and Special Agent 19 on July 14, 2021? 20 : Yes. 21 : All right. So we just 22 reviewed the transcript. We just had a couple 23 - a few questions - just for follow-ups. So 24 I'm just going to -. We have an actual 25 transcript here if you want to see the specific EFTA00059596  7 1 wording, but just kind of broke it down to 2 summarize so we don't have to like flip through 3 the -- 4 : Okay. 5 : -- pages. So page - I'm 6 just going to read a few of these things and 7 then I'll get into the questions. It says on 8 page 43, "I knew he was going downstairs." So 9 WAB - so we're talking about inmate Reyes right 10 now. Do you remember Efrain Reyes? 11 : Yes. 12 : He was WAB. He was 13 Epstein's celimate. So we're just trying to 14 follow-up a little bit more on what happened 15 with Reyes. So again, on page 43 you said, "I 16 knew he was going downstairs. So WAB means 17 with all belongings. And you go to R&D. 18 You're supposed to leave within probably an 19 hour and not come back. But there have been 20 times that they go downstairs for all their 21 stuff and they come right back upstairs whether 22 it's to SHU or to a unit." And then on the 23 next page on 44 it says, "There's been a lot of 24 times that we take them downstairs. Two-three 25 hours later something happens. You know what, EFTA00059597  8 1 go right back upstairs. You leave tomorrow or 2 the next day." Page 45, you talked about in 3 the interview the daily log. Do you recall? 4 This is the daily log and on the back page 5 you'll see where it says Efrain Reyes and where 6 he was pre-remove. 7 : Yes. 8 : It says, "During an 9 interview we searched the daily log that shows 10 Reyes was pre-removed at 8:35 a.m. on August 9, 11 2019. You said that that means that Reyes left 12 the building and most likely was not going to 13 return. If he was going to court, it would 14 just say "court" next to his name." Is that 15 Correct? 16 : Correct. 17 : Okay. Page 46 you then 18 said that pre-remove and WAB are basically the 19 same thing. Is that correct? 20 : Correct. 21 : All right. Page 47 and 22 48, then you said, Since the daily log said 23 pre-remove, that means that the callout sheet 24 court roster likely said WAB next to Reyes' 25 name. When he was removed from the SHU. And EFTA00059598  9 1 you believed that is what it said. Is that 2 Correct? 3 : Correct. 4 : All right. Page 49, you 5 then said that an inmate who was going to court 6 would not leave with all their belongings and 7 said that Reyes left with all of his 8 belongings. 9 : Correct. 10 : All right. You then said 11 that Reyes should have been replaced as soon as 12 it was confirmed that he left the building. So 13 after talking with you, we talked to R&D, and 14 we reviewed a bunch of documents. And we found 15 these - emails that we found from August 8, 16 2019. You wouldn't have received them. But 17 or at least I don't believe you did. So the 18 first one was sent at 10:33 a.m. and it says 19 that the following prisoners are being 20 transferred. It says Reyes, Efrain. Please 21 schedule the transfer for Friday, 8/9/2019. 22 Please include seven days of medication with 23 medical summary. Thank you. Did you ever 24 receive that? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00059599  10 1 : You don't. All right. 2 And then on August 8, 2019, at 3:36 p.m. 3 there's a prisoner schedule report. It just 4 says Efrain Reyes transfer within. It says MCC 5 TOT to GEO, meaning that he was being 6 transferred from the MCC to GEO. 7 : Right. 8 : That lines up with your 9 story where you said like if he was going to 10 court it would have said court. 11 : Right. 12 : And if it - if he was 13 leaving, it would say pre-remove and WAB like 14 it did. Correct? 15 : Correct. 16 : All right. Awesome. And 17 then also, you told us this, but when we were 18 reviewing one of the other interviews, it said 19 that. I guess - did you and officer 20 are you the two that escorted both Reyes and 21 Epstein down to -? 22 : Reyes was going to I think 23 R&D. And Epstein was going to attorney 24 conference. 25 : Okay. So was with EFTA00059600  11 1 you though? Because during this is says that 2 his last interaction with Epstein was on August 3 9, 2019 while doing an escort with Officer 4 stated that told 5 Epstein that he would need a new cellmate since 6 Reyes was released. 7 : Yes, sir. Pretty much. 8 : Okay. 9 : See when I was out the 10 door, that's when I told him. 11 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. And you 12 had mentioned you had said that. Yeah. 13 : Correct. 14 : I already read that. 15 : I did tell him you're going 16 to get a bunkie. 17 : Right. So just the 18 follow-up question, with all review of this 19 stuff, I guess it's based on this information 20 in your statements. Why wasn't Epstein 21 assigned a new cellmate after Reyes was brought 22 downstairs as a WAS? 23 : You asking me? Like 24 : Yeah-yeah. So for 25 instance, during your shift, so he was brought EFTA00059601  12 1 down at least by 8:38 - that's when he was 2 listed as pre-remove. You had said, you know, 3 sometimes they come right back up. You know it 4 could always take an hour or two -. 5 : Or longer until the 6 conclave - sometimes it's not 7 : Right. 8 : -- right before for the 9 count. 10 : So like why - your shift 11 ended at 2:00 p.m. correct? 12 : Correct. 13 : Why wasn't he replaced 14 prior to 2:00 p.m. if, you know, 8:00 all the 15 way to 2:00. That's like six hours later. 16 : Well he was in attorney 17 conference. It usually takes -. 18 : Not Epstein. I'm sorry. 19 Reyes' - oh sorry. This is how you're 20 answering it. So yeah, why wasn't Epstein 21 inmate replaced and - or cellmate replaced? 22 And I'm sorry for interrupting. 23 : To mine, he wasn't replaced 24 because he didn't' need a replacement right 25 then and there. Because Epstein was still EFTA00059602  13 1 downstairs. So pretty much I guess he got a 2 couple of hours to search for the bunkie or let 3 somebody know. I really don't know why he 4 wasn't replaced. 5 : So when we talked to you 6 though, you said he wasn't replaced because you 7 didn't know that he wasn't going to return. 8 : Correct. 9 : But in reviewing all of 10 this and reviewing your statements, and then 11 reviewing everything, we did know he wasn't 12 going to return. And you even said like no he 13 was WAB - that's not court. He was leaving and 14 if he didn't' come back within a few hours, and 15 we knew he wasn't leaving. 16 : Right. So -. 17 : So -. 18 : He goes downstairs at 8:00 19 in the morning, he could still come back. Like 20 I said before, he could still come back right 21 before the count. Because the count is at 22 4:00. 23 : How would that happen if 24 before when you're -. Again, in your statement 25 you said it could take like an hour or two but EFTA00059603  14 1 if he's not back then, you know, your exact 2 statement was, "There's been a lot of times 3 when I take them downstairs you know two-three 4 hours later something happens. You know what, 5 go right back upstairs. You leave tomorrow or 6 the next day. So this was obviously a lot 7 longer than two or three hours. So why was it? 8 And I guess - the way that you had said, it's 9 kind of like you passed it along saying make 10 sure he gets a bunkie. Right? You said that 11 you told Officer 12 : Correct. 13 : But why didn't -? 14 : At 2:00 when I left. 15 : That's what you said -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- at 2:00 right? So, 18 but why wasn't - why weren't the proper - the 19 notifications made prior to that time to get 20 him a bunkie? 21 : I really don't remember why 22 it wasn't done. Or I don't think there was a 23 reason why it wasn't done. I mean it was hours 24 later, yes, but it's not just one thing going 25 on. EFTA00059604  15 1 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. So you 2 knew though that he wasn't coming back, right? 3 : No, I didn't. I never said 4 I didn't. 5 : Then how can you say that 6 though? Because you said that WAB means that 7 he's gone. 8 : With all belongings. 9 Correct. And once again, just because it says 10 WAS, he could come back within a couple of 11 hours. A couple of hours could be right before 12 the counts signed. 13 : The count at 4:00 p.m.? 14 : Correct. 15 : How is a couple of hours 16 - a couple hours means two. So eight, nine, 17 ten 18 : Well I don't have specific 19 times. I don't - like I really don't know how 20 to say anything or what to say. If it didn't 21 happen, it just didn't happen in between that 22 time. 23 : Right. 24 : Like I said, it was 25 probably a whole bunch of stuff going on. And EFTA00059605  16 1 to me, again, he was another inmate. And if 2 Reyes went downstairs, there was a possibility 3 he was going to come back because you know, 4 again, it's not the first time or last time 5 somebody goes downstairs with WAB and has to go 6 right back upstairs. 7 : Right-right. 8 : So I really don't know why 9 he wasn't replaced within more than just two 10 hours. 11 : Okay. So -. 12 : Because I'm saying a couple 13 to get an (Indiscernible *00:11:45) 14 : When did you leave the 15 MCC on August 9, 2019? 16 : Maybe 1:45, I think. Maybe 17 2:00 18 : All right. So you 19 actually - your shift ended at 2:00, but you 20 did leave around that time, 2:00? 21 : Correct. 22 : Um -. 23 : I don't know what was 24 exactly the time. 25 : Okay. But you didn't EFTA00059606  17 1 stay for like an overtime shift? Or stick 2 around? 3 : I went to - what was it? I 4 think I did Town Driver after that. I'm not 5 sure. 6 : What did you do? 7 : Town driver. 8 : What does that mean? 9 : The van outside the 10 building. 11 : Oh. So you're still 12 working though? 13 : I think I did it that day. 14 I don't know but. 15 : Okay. But you were not 16 in the SHU after 2:00 p.m.? 17 : No, I wasn't. 18 : All right. Now we talked 19 with And we talked to the people that 20 you listed as the people who said that. And 21 they're all saying that you did not tell them 22 to get him a new bunkie. 23 : Okay. 24 : So did you tell them? 25 Did you tell that he needed to get a new EFTA00059607  18 1 celimate? 2 : I told and 3 (Phonetic Sp. *00:12:48). 4 : Okay, because 5 : Just like I said before. 6 Huh. 7 : Yeah, so I mean, we have 8 the statements here. Over and over again 9 saying, absolutely not. said, absolutely 10 not. 11 : Okay. 12 : So did you make those 13 notifications? 14 : Once again, yes I did. 15 : Okay. So even though the 16 people that you're saying that didn't - and 17 was in your - on your shift, correct? 18 : Yes. 19 : But he wasn't even there 20 after the fact, right? 21 : No. 22 : So what would he gain 23 from not - or from making those statements? 24 : I don't know. 25 : Does he have something EFTA00059608  19 1 against you? 2 : No, I don't think so. 3 : Yeah, so I'm just trying 4 - I'm just trying to put - here's the daily 5 assignment roster. It shows from Friday, 6 August 9, 2019, and - let's see. Where are you 7 listed? You're listed right here as 8 And is here. I guess - what time 9 would have he gone from? Is it 7:00 to 3:00 or 10 8:00 to 4:00? 11 : Whatever numbers. There 12 should be a number right next to it. 13 : Okay. So it's eight- 14 eight. So he would have been 8:00 to 4:00. 15 Okay. So he would have been there up until 16 4:00 p.m.? And then you would have bene there 17 until 2:00 p.m.? 18 : Correct. 19 : All right So you 20 believe they're just both incorrect? Or lying 21 to us? 22 : I don't believe none of 23 that. I just - maybe they don't remember me 24 telling them. 25 : Because you had no one -. EFTA00059609  20 1 And this - just so you're aware - this one from 2 was back in, you know, back when the 3 incident happened. 4 : Okay. 5 : So it's not like it was 6 two years later. This was like right away they 7 spoke with him. 8 : Okay. 9 : Now did you have - since 10 we have spoken, have you recalled if you 11 actually passed the information up to like the 12 ops and activities lieutenant, which was 13 and um -. and 14 : You on, this is what, like 15 a couple of years ago? From last time, 16 nothing's changed from our last conversation. 17 : All right. So no, no 18 recollections? So if you didn't tell them, and 19 if they were aware, how would have they found 20 out? 21 : Probably through R&D. 22 : R&D or something. So if 23 they knew though that he left, but they also 24 make the same claim, we didn't know he wasn't 25 coming back. Where would they get that EFTA00059610  21 1 information from? 2 : That he wasn't coming back? 3 Or that he was coming back? 4 : That they didn't know if 5 he wasn't or not. 6 : Unless through R&D. That's 7 the only time. 8 : So R&D knows that he's 9 gone? They know he was transferred. He's 10 gone. 11 : Some (Indiscernible 12 *OO:15:34) 13 : So is there anyone -? 14 : Because we don't get the 15 notifications unless on the count or where's 16 this body at - or this person left so he 17 shouldn't be on your count. 18 : So like if at the time, 19 so on August 9th, they're saying yes, I knew 20 Reyes left but I wasn't sure if he wasn't 21 coming back. Would have that been based upon 22 information that you provided or someone from 23 the SHU provided? Or you're just saying from 24 the overall count? 25 : From the overall count - EFTA00059611  22 1 just in general. 2 : Okay. Because they would 3 - if they were involved in the count, they 4 would see where people -- 5 : Correct. 6 left from or not? All 7 right. So that doesn't mean that you told them 8 that. 9 : You asked me earlier if I 10 told them. I did recall telling them. 11 : The other day you said 12 you thought you did but you couldn't remember. 13 : Yeah. 14 : So are you confident you 15 did tell them? 16 : Again, it's a while back. 17 I don't remember some stuff from last week. So 18 -- 19 : Sure. 20 : -- you know. I do recall. 21 I'm not 100 percent positive. Most likely I 22 did tell them. 23 : But yeah, you just don't 24 - you don't know if you did or didn't. So 25 that's where - and you're - because you're EFTA00059612  23 1 saying the 100 percent thing. But you're 100 2 percent positive you told 3 : I don't even remember if I 4 told him because he started at 4:00. 5 : Well this should -. 6 started at 4:00? 7 : I think started at 8 4:00. 9 : But was your 10 replacement, right? 11 : Correct. At 2:00. 12 : So he would have started 13 at 2:00? 14 : At 2:00. 15 : All right. So are you 16 100 percent positive you told 17 : I'm very certain that I did 18 tell him. Him and 19 : Okay. And can you just 20 recall what it is you told them again? You 21 told us a couple things during your interview. 22 So I just want to make sure that - what it is 23 you actually said. 24 : I don't remember word-by- 25 word what I told them. Like I said, it's been EFTA00059613  24 1 what a couple years. And you know, I'm pretty 2 sure I told them, hey, Reyes might not be 3 coming back. He got to get a bunkie. 4 : So you said Reyes might 5 not be coming back but you have to get him a 6 bunkie? 7 : Nah, if he doesn't come 8 back, you got to get him a bunkie? 9 : All right. So at that 10 point, you still are saying that even though 11 you knew he was WAB, at 2:00 p.m. you didn't 12 know he was coming - not coming back? 13 : I didn't know if he was. 14 And I didn't know if he was not coming back. 15 : And again, even though 16 you knew he wasn't going to court. What at 17 2:00 p.m. would have caused him to come back? 18 : At 2:00 p.m.? 19 : Yeah. 20 MR. TUPPER: Who Reyes? 21 : Yeah, you're saying that 22 you told them at 2:00 p.m. that he might not be 23 coming back. At that point, when you dropped 24 him off, way earlier in the morning. 25 : I don't -. So once they EFTA00059614  25 1 leave, I don't - I'm not on top of calling 2 every five minutes to find out where this 3 inmate going or is he coming back or is he not 4 coming back. So once they leave the SHU, then 5 they leave SHU. 6 : Okay. But with you 7 saying that he was WAB and pre-remove, you had 8 mentioned though, that that meant they weren't 9 coming back. 10 : There's a possibility of 11 him not coming back. Correct. 12 : Well you said not 13 possibly, so doesn't that mean you weren't 14 coming back, but only if there were some 15 problems that happened within the first hour or 16 two. And they would -. 17 : I don't recall. Like 18 : All right. 19 : -- that seems repetitive 20 and it's getting a little frustrating. 21 : Yeah. I know. It's not 22 - I'm just trying to get the clear answer of 23 like -. We're just trying to figure out. 24 Alright, you left during your shift. You're 25 the one who sent him down. You knew he was EFTA00059615  26 1 WAS. You knew that WAB meant he wasn't coming 2 back. He was listed as pre-remove. R&D said 3 he transferred to another institution. This 4 all happening during your shift. You were the 5 OIC. Why didn't you take action and get him a 6 new bunkie? 7 : There was a million other 8 things going on. I'm not the only officer 9 working there. 10 : Okay. So you said you 11 may have -. So we have a -. 12 : Do we have to continue? 13 Because I'm -. 14 : This is a total - we're 15 moving off of Reyes now. So this is an email 16 sent from Friday, August 9, 2019, at 6:07 p.m. 17 It's from you to who was the 18 ops lieutenant. And it has to do with inmate 19 Fernandez. And it looks like it was some kind 20 of incident that took place while you were on 21 shift. And I think we talked about this as 22 well. So I'm just trying to figure out - and 23 you can look at this. Were you here at 6:00 24 p.m.? 25 : I did work that day. EFTA00059616  27 1 That's that there. 2 : So was that Daily or, 3 Daily Roster, would it show on here if you 4 worked that day? 5 : Yes it would. 6 : Somehow? So again around 7 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.? 8 : Correct. 9 : All right. Cool. All 10 right. So during that time, do you know if you 11 had any conversations with then, 12 regarding anything, with like Epstein or Reyes 13 or Fernandez? 14 : I don't remember talking to 15 that day. 16 : Where is this at? 17 : Did you see these? 18 : Oh there you go. Yeah. 19 It's on the second page. So there's OT 1400 to 20 2200. All right. So you were there. And 21 that's when - so as a town driver, you were 22 still able to come in and like work on the 23 reports and stuff? 24 : Or I would just walk into 25 the lobby, send the shot. EFTA00059617  28 1 : All right. Great. So 2 you would have sent - but that -. This 3 obviously - that email (Indiscernible 4 *00:22:31) that would have been sent from 5 inside the institution? 6 : Correct. 7 : Okay. Can you just tell 8 us a little bit? DO you remember what happened 9 with that inmate? You know, you can read this 10 incident report if it helps you. 11 : It says the visiting room I 12 think. 13 : Here, I'll just read it. 14 For the record, it says, "On August 9, 2019, at 15 approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS , while 16 assigned to the Special Housing Unit officer, I 17 proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting 18 room. As I walked towards the door, I observed 19 through the visiting room door inmate 20 Fernandez, Number 86824-054, attempt to grab an 21 unknown item from his visitor. Once inmate 22 Fernandez reached to grab the item, I called 23 the door and called for a lieutenant. Once I 24 was able to enter the visiting room, I gave 25 inmate Fernandez a direct order to walk of the EFTA00059618  29 1 visiting room - I assume that means you were 2 off the visiting room - to conduct a visual 3 search. Inmate Fernandez complied and the 4 visual search was conducted. Operations 5 lieutenant was contacted and inmate Fernandez 6 was removed from the unit. 7 : I assume it's in the 8 report. 9 : Yeah. Does that help you 10 recollect what happened then? 11 : Not really. 12 : No? I don't see a 13 (Indiscernible *00:23:56). 14 : There's a lot of visitors. 15 So. 16 : All right. So alright. 17 So it doesn't really ring a bell or 18 : Nah. 19 remind you? Do you 20 know - remember where Fernandez would have been 21 placed? 22 : From the visiting room? 23 : Well it says that - do 24 you know if he was in the SHU visiting room? 25 Nine South visiting room, right? EFTA00059619  30 1 : If that's what it says, 2 yeah. 3 : Yeah, the Nine South 4 visiting room. The last sentence says, "And 5 inmate Fernandez was removed from the unit." 6 It does say the operations lieutenant was 7 contacted. And inmate Fernandez was removed 8 from the unit. 9 : It says he's on Seven 10 North. So I'm not sure if that was -. It 11 should say location. 12 : Oh, okay. So up here is 13 this Seven North? 14 : That's what he's 15 : With a back -? 16 : -- assigned to. And on the 17 left - I think it's the fifth or sixth line - 18 on the top like sixth box should say what he's 19 assigned to. 20 : This says on a -. 21 : The location of incident. 22 The one to the left on that. 23 : I'm just going to give it 24 to you. 25 : Sorry. Place of incident, EFTA00059620  31 1 Special Housing Unit visiting room. 2 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. That's 3 the incident. I'm saying do you know where he 4 was -? It says that he was removed from the 5 unit. Do you know where he would have been 6 removed and went? 7 : Well from the visiting room 8 into SHU. 9 : Oh, okay. So you think 10 he was - when it says he was removed from the 11 unit, it doesn't mean that he was removed from 12 the SHU? 13 : No. 14 : Okay. 15 : It was in the visiting 16 room. 17 : So on (Indiscernible 18 *00:25:26). 19 : Inmates from Seven North use 20 the SHU visiting room? 21 : No. So he was probably in 22 SHU. But he's assigned to Seven North. 23 : So Seven North before the 24 SHU. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059621  32 1 : And just assume where I'm 2 saying. So we can actually look at that. We 3 have an inmate history quarters. If you look 4 there. I mean that's the less important, Seven 5 North. Because we're trying to figure out 6 where he went. 7 : I don't remember. 8 : So in the lieutenant's 9 log - if you look at the second highlighted one 10 down there - it says at 3:15 he was moved from 11 the SHU to R&D dry cell, correct? 12 : Yeah. That's the dry cell. 13 : So do you remember at all 14 if at this - during this incident would have he 15 been moved when that happened? Or after the 16 fact would he be moved at 3:15. 17 : When it happened. 18 : When it happened? 19 : When it happened. 20 : So right at that - so 21 this 3:15 is probably a little wrong then, I'm 22 assuming. 23 : Well officer time. That's 24 maybe when he logged it in. 25 : Okay. So - but at - at EFTA00059622  33 1 that time, you would have brough him right from 2 the SHU visiting room to the R&D dry cell? 3 : I mean within the next 4 five-six minutes. 5 : Okay. And you did - and 6 it does say you did notify the ops lieutenant, 7 correct? 8 : Yes. 9 : So who would have been 10 responsible to key him out of the SHU and place 11 him into R&D? 12 : Most likely it would have 13 been control. 14 : Control would have done 15 it? 16 : Control. 17 : So who would have 18 notified control to do that? 19 : Unless control saw it over 20 the cameras, hey who is this guy. Or once he 21 got to R&D, R&D could have contacted control. 22 The lieutenant could have contacted control. 23 : Okay. 24 : SHU could have contacted 25 control. EFTA00059623  34 1 : All right. So - but 2 there's no one - like it wouldn't be like 3 you're the one who, you wouldn't have like 4 contacted control? 5 : Nobody specific. 6 : Okay. Because if you see 7 in this, he actually wasn't keyed out until 8 12:35 a.m. on the next day, 8/10/209 was when 9 he was actually keyed from the SHU to R&D. So 10 do you know if - are you aware? Like who was 11 it - what should have you contacted control and 12 told them? 13 : Anybody could have 14 contacted -- 15 : Anyone could? 16 : -- it doesn't have to be 17 me. 18 : Okay. Even though you 19 know working in the SHU and all that kind of 20 stuff, it wouldn't be - because OIC that would 21 mean your job? 22 : Anybody can contact them. 23 : Where is the SHU direct line? 24 : In the middle. 25 : In the middle? EFTA00059624  35 1 : Of SHU. Correct. 2 : Okay. And when you moved - 3 on this incident. When you removed the inmate, 4 right? 5 : It goes through SHU and 6 into the elevator downstairs. 7 : And you would have - if you 8 wrote the report, that means you moved the 9 inmate yourself? 10 : No. Anybody could have 11 moved him. Because if you're in SHU, depending 12 on how many staff's in the SHU, you stay in 13 SHU. Then in turn, you could take them 14 downstairs. The lieutenant could take them 15 downstairs. Any staff could take them 16 downstairs. 17 : So, do you have any idea 18 why he was moved to R&D and not to the dry cell 19 in the SHU? 20 : Maybe there wasn't enough 21 space. 22 : Okay. So that wouldn't 23 have been your responsibility then? To 24 actually do the keying or keying him out of the 25 SHU and putting him into R&D - or to notify EFTA00059625  36 1 control? 2 : I could have. Anybody 3 could have notified control. Control is doing 4 that. They keyed him out. 5 : Because obviously this is 6 just part of the whole thing. This is - as I 7 think we talked about before - how many of the 8 counts were wrong. Well the counts were all 9 wrong because people in the SHU that weren't 10 conducting the counts never caught on to the 11 fact that he wasn't in here. So, we're just 12 trying to figure out like - this is all going 13 to be part of the story. So obviously there's 14 going to be higher-ups who are going to, like, 15 look at this to say, like, who dropped the ball 16 there. 17 : Okay. 18 : And are you part of that 19 dropping the ball? Or is that someone that -? 20 : No, I'm not. 21 : No? 22 : No, I'm not. 23 : So that wouldn't have 24 been you that would have 25 : No. EFTA00059626  37 1 : -- been responsible? 2 : No. 3 : But when you contacted -. 4 : I do my job to the best of 5 my ability. 6 : Absolutely. And thank 7 you for what you do. When you contact the ops 8 lieutenant, would the control have been aware 9 that you made that contact with the ops 10 lieutenant? 11 : They would have heard it 12 over the radio. 13 : So it would have been 14 over the radio? 15 : Correct. 16 : All right. So control 17 would have actually caught this on the radio. 18 So control, by you making that -- 19 : Control should be -- 20 : -- notification -. 21 : -- able to hear every radio 22 transmission. 23 : And if you're notifying 24 the ops lieutenant on the radio, should they 25 have then keyed him out? EFTA00059627  38 1 : They got to verify it 2 first. 3 : Okay. So someone has to 4 actually call to say -. 5 : This guy is down here. 6 Yes. 7 : Make this key entry. 8 : Yes. 9 : All right. And that is 10 not you? 11 : No. That's anybody. 12 : What would you have said over 13 the radio? 14 : They would have heard 15 operations come to visiting. 16 : But you wouldn't have said, 17 hey listen, you're moving an inmate. You would 18 have asked the ops lieutenant to show up to the 19 SHU -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- so you could discuss the 22 matter, right? 23 : Yeah. Not over the radio 24 though. I'm not going to say over the radio 25 this inmate is going downstairs to be placed on EFTA00059628  39 1 dry cell. No. 2 : But then control wouldn't 3 have known that though. 4 : What do you mean? 5 : Like you asked for -. On the 6 radio call. What I said is -. 7 : So if I called the 8 lieutenant, control knows that I'm calling the 9 lieutenant. They don't know why I'm calling 10 the lieutenant for. 11 : But they wouldn't have known 12 that there's an inmate being moved to the -. 13 : Unless they see him through 14 the camera. 15 : Okay. 16 : So I mean I understand 17 what you're saying, anybody among - still just 18 trying to wrap my head around - obviously 19 everybody has a job to do and I get that you're 20 doing your job to the best of your ability. 21 But like, who's responsibility is it? So 22 obviously, if someone's moving someone to 23 somewhere, someone has got to be like -. 24 : It would be the operations 25 lieutenant to notify control saying this guy is EFTA00059629  40 1 being placed on dry cell, key him out. 2 : All right. So it would 3 be the operations lieutenant's job? 4 : Correct. 5 : Okay. 6 : Operations lieutenant is 7 the person running the building. 8 : All right. So the ops 9 lieutenant. And in this case specifically, 10 since you're sending emails to - actually the 11 count didn't start that day until later on. 12 Being that - so that should have been either 13 or at this time, correct? If this 14 actually happened at 1:40 p.m., since they were 15 the ops and activities lieutenants at the time? 16 : They were, but he's 17 probably asked for the shot. 18 : Who asked for the shot? 19 : I'm saying he probably 20 asked for the shot. 21 : Yeah, 22 : I don't even remember why I 23 sent him the shot if the other lieutenants were 24 there. 25 : Well because I'm EFTA00059630  41 1 assuming, because you sent that at 6:00 p.m. 2 and this was - so it happened at 1:40 p.m.? 3 : Correct. 4 : That was very close to 5 the end of your shift, correct? 6 : Correct. 7 : And you said you probably 8 left at around 1:45. 9 : Right. 10 : So you just must have 11 like the very last thing you did in there, 12 right? 13 : Pro