EFTA00725643.pdf

0308 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 CASE NO.: 08-CV-80119-MARRA/JOHNSON 3 4 JANE DOE NO. 2, 5 Plaintiff, 6 -vs- VOLUME III OF III 7 JEFFREY EPSTEIN, 8 Defendant. 9 Related cases: 08-80232, 08-08380, 08-80381, 08-80994, 10 08-80993, 08-80811, 08-80893, 09-80469, 09-80591, 09-80656, 09-80802, 09-81092 11 12 VIDEO-CONFERENCED AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JANE DOE NO. 4 13 14 Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:11 - 6:05 15 16 17 250 Australian Avenue South Suite 115 18 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 19 20 21 Reported By: Cynthia Hopkins, RPR, FPR 22 Notary Public, State of Florida Prose Court Reporting 23 24 25 0309 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of the Plaintiff, L.M. and E.W.: 3 MICHAEL J. WHEELER, ESQUIRE ROTHSTEIN, ROSENFELDT, ADLER 4 401 East Las Olas Boulevard Suite 1650 5 Fort Lauderdale Florida 33301 Phone: 6 7 On behalf of Jane Does 1 through 8: 8 ADAM D. HOROWITZ, ESQUIRE STUART S. MERMELSTEIN, ESQUIRE 9 MERMELSTEIN & HOROWITZ, P.A. 18205 Biscayne Boulevard 10 Suite 2218 Miami, Florida 33160 file:///CVDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.16204.1620Jane%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txt111/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725643  11 Phone: E-mail: 12 13 On behalf of C.M.A.: 14 RICHARD HORACE WILLITS, ESQUIRE RICHARD H. WILLITS, P.A. 15 2290 10th Avenue North Suite 404 16 Lake Worth Florida 33461 Phone: 17 (Via Telephone) 18 On behalf of the Defendant, Jeffrey Epstein: 19 ROBERT D. CRITTON, JR., ESQUIRE MARK T. LUTTIER, ESQUIRE 20 BURMAN, CRITTON, LUITIER & COLEMAN, LLP 303 Banyan Boulevard 21 Suite 400 West Palm Beach Florida 33401 22 Phone: 23 24 ALSO PRESENT: Jeffrey Epstein, via video conference Jeff Abbott, Videographer 25 Visual Evidence, Incorporated 0310 1 2 INDEX - 3 4 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 5 JANE DOE NO. 4 6 CONTINUED 7 BY MR. LUTTIER 311 8 9 10 EXHIBITS 11 12 13 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE 14 DEFENDANT'S EX. 1 Proposal for Settlement 72 15 DEFENDANT'S EX. 2 Answers to Interrogatories 232 16 DEFENDANT'S EX. 3 Petition for Injunction 348 17 DEFENDANTS EX. 4 Handwritten Note 384 18 DEFENDANTS EX. 5 Psychological/Social History 394 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0311 1 * * * * * 2 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It is the beginning of 4 Tape Number 3. We're back on the record at 11 le:MCVDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.1620Jane%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725644  5 4:19. 6 BY MR. LUTTIER: 7 . All right. 8 9 A. 10 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 G 17 18 A 19 20 Q. 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 Q. 0312 1 A. Yeah I think so. 2 Q. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. Yeah. 18 19 20 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 BY MR. LUTTIER: 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. 0313 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.16204.1620Jane%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txt111/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725645  7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who? 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 16 17 A. Yeah. 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. 24 MR. MERMELSTEIN: How about letting him 25 finish. Let him finish. 0314 1 BY MR. LUTHER: 2 3 4 5 6 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, asked -- 7 BY MR. LUTTIER: 8 Q. 9 A. No. 10 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Asked and answered. 11 BY MR. LUTHER: 12 13 14 A. No. 15 16 17 A. I don't remember. 18 I don't remember -- I don't -- I don't 19 know. 20 . Prior to having sexual intercourse with 21 did you have other types of sex with him? 22 Specifically did you have oral sex with =? 23 MR. MERMELSTEIN: I'm going to object. 24 This applies to our Rule 412 objection. Don't 25 answer the question. 0315 1 BY MR. LUTHER: 2 Q. Did you have -- do you know a uy named 3 Mister -- a guy by the name o last name 4 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you have oral sex with him? 7 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Don't answer the 8 question. 11 le:///CVDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.1620Jane%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725646  9 BY MR. LUTTIER: 10 Q. When you -- how old were you when you -- 11 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Same objection. 12 BY MR. LUTTIER: 13 . How old were you when you knew 14 Mr. 15 A. I was in middle, or middle school. 16 Q. What, middle school? 17 A. Yeah, I know him. 18 Q. Middle school? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Do you know a (phonetic)? 21 A. Yeah. They were best friends. 22 MR. MERMELSTEIN: The question is, do you 23 know him. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 25 0316 1 BY MR. LUTTIER: 2 Q And do ou know what the relationship 3 between nd Mr.Mlwas? 4 A. Friends. 5 Q. Okay. They pals or pal around together? 6 A. Friends. 7 Q. You knew them both? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Did you have oral sex with both of them? 10 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Don't -- again, Rule 412 11 objection. Do not answer that question. 12 BY MR. LUTTIER: 13 Q. And, and did you associate with either of 14 these individuals once you got to high school? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Didi stit ave oral sex with Mr. 17 and/or Mr. before you went to see 18 Mr. Epstein? 19 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, Rule 412. Do 20 not answer that question. 21 BY MR. LUTTIER: 22 Q. Do you know a fellow by the name of.? 23 A. That's 24 Q. Okay. Did have sexual intercourse 25 with either Mr. or Mr. at any time? 0317 1 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, Rule 412. Do 2 not answer that question. 3 BY MR. LUTTIER: 4 . Did ou have sexual intercourse with 5 Mr. or Mr. before you went to see 6 Jeffrey Epstein? 7 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, Rule 412. Do 8 not answer the question. 9 BY MR. LUTHER: 10 Q. All right. file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 P141 EFTA00725647  11 12 13 14 15 16 A. (No verbal response.) 17 Q. Ri ht? 18 A. 19 Q. o 20 A. 21 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 A. Yeah. 0318 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I don't remember. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 0319 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. 3 A. Yeah. 4 5 6 A. Yeah. 7 8 9 10 A. Yeah. 11 4S . O1 IM 12 file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725648  13 A. 14 15 16 A. Yeah. 17 18 19 A. No. 20 Q. 21 A. No. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 Q. 25 A. 0320 1 Q. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Do ou -- 4 A. 5 Q. Well, did you? 6 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Be certain of your 7 answer. 8 BY MR. LUTTIER: 9 Q. Yeah, take your time. 10 A. Yeah I think so. Yeah. 11 12 I don't 13 remember. 14 Q. Oka 15 A. 16 17 18 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Make sure you're sure of 19 your answer before you give it. If you need to 20 pause for a minute after the question is asked, 21 do so, but make, make sure you're -- you know, 22 before you blurt out your answer, make, make 23 sure you, you recall correctly. Okay? 24 BY MR. LUTTIER. 25 Q. 0321 1 2 3 A. Yeah. 5 6 4 as A. Yeah. 7 8 9 A. There. What you mean, there? 10 Q. Well ou've of to get the actual -- 11 A. 12 SOkay. 13 14 A. Yeah. 11 le:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725649  15 Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 20 21 22 A. 23 24 O. 25 0322 1 A. No. 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. No. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 20 21 Q. 22 A. No. 23 24 25 0323 1 A. Yeah. 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 A. No. 8 9 10 11 12 A. No. 13 O. 14 15 A. No. 16 Q. file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725650  17 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 23 24 A. No. 25 0324 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. Right? 7 A. Yeah. 8 9 10 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, form. 15 Objection, argumentative. 16 BY MR. LUTTIER• 17 Q. 18 A. Yeah. 19 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, argumentative 20 again. 21 BY MR. LUTTIER: 22 Q. Is that correct? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. 25 A. 0325 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. 12 A. I don't remember. 13 14 15 A. No. Yeah it was. 16 17 18 A. file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725651  19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. 032 1 2 3 4 65 • 7 A. 8 9 Okay. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. 23 Q 24 A. 25 Q 0327 1 A. I don't remember. 2 3 • 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form, 7 argumentative. 8 BY MR. LUTHER: 9 Q. 10 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. LUTHER: 12 13 14 A. Yeah. 15 16 17 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. LUTTIER: 19 Q. Correct? 20 A. Yeah. file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725652  21 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 22 BY MR. LUTTIER. 23 Q. 24 A. Yeah. 25 0328 1 2 3 4 A. Yeah. 5 6 7 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Ob'ection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: 9 10 BY MR. LUTTIER: 11 Q. Did you -- did he -- had you told him 12 prior to that or before that occasion that you had 13 been sexually active with men? 14 A. I told him, yeah. 15 Q. When did you first tell your dad you were 16 being sexually active with men? 17 A. Well, I think my dad kind of -- they -- I 18 think my dad asked me, and I told him the truth. 19 Q. This was when? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. At 15, at 14, at 12? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. When did you first become sexually active? 24 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to the form. 25 It's been asked and answered so many times 0329 1 already. 2 BY MR. LUTHER: 3 Q. Just an age is all I'm looking for. 4 A. I don't remember. I've already told you. 5 Q. How long were you sexually active before 6 you told your dad you were sexually active? 7 A. I don't remember because I don't remember 8 when my dad told me. 9 Q. You were telling your dad, remember? 10 A. Yeah, when I asked -- when I told my dad, 11 sorry. 12 Q. Did you -- you've had a couple of 13 boyfriends since then, right? 14 A. Yeah. 15 16 17 A. Yeah. Well, yeah. 18 Q. Are you sure? 19 A. Yeah. 20 2 22 A. Yes. file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.%2Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PMl EFTA00725653  23 Q. Have you had oral sex with your current 24 boyfriend? 25 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, Rule 412. Do 0330 1 not answer that question. 2 BY MR. LUTHER: 3 m ian . 4 5 A. Yeah. 6 7 8 A. No. 9 Q. 10 A. Never asked. 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I've never, like gone 18 out with -- no, I mean -- 19 BY MR. LUTHER: 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. 0331 1 Q. 2 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Just listen to the -- 3 THE WITNESS: Wait. 4 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Listen to the question 5 that he -- make sure you listen -- before you 6 answer, make sure you listen to the question 7 and answer it. 8 Can you read back -- 9 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 10 MR. MERMELSTEIN: -- the prior question? 11 (The requested portion of the record was 12 read by the reporter.) 13 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Well -- 14 THE WITNESS: What is -- 15 BY MR. LUTTIER: 16 Q. If you need to correct something, go 17 ahead. There's no tricks here. 18 A. Yeah, can you ask the question one more 19 time? 20 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Well go to the first 21 question there and answer. I just wanted to 22 make sure you think about it before you blurt 23 it out. 24 BY MR. LUTHER: 11 le:MCVDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.1620Jane%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725654  25 Q. Is the answer, correct? If you want to 0332 1 change it, go ahead and change it if it's wron 2 Fm not t in to trick ou or an thin 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Okay. Now -- 11 MR. MERMELSTEIN: That's why you have to 12 be careful when you're answering the question. 13 Make sure you understand the question, and, 14 and, and think about it before you answer it. 15 Okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 17 BY MR. LUTHER: 18 Q. Now, your parents know about this lawsuit, 19 right? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Did you tell your parents about the 22 lawsuit before you filed it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does your sister know about the lawsuit? 25 A. Yes. 0333 1 Q. Did you tell her before you filed it? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And why did you tell your sister? 4 A. Why didn't I? 5 Q. Why did you? 6 A. Because it was something I didn't -- well, 7 something that I thought she should know. 8 . Now, you mentioned that in- 9 there's a close group of all you girls that 10 were going to see Mr. Epstein; is that right? 11 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. LUTHER: 13 Q. Correct? You said all of you were, that 14 you went to school together and you were all 15 friends? 16 A. I wasn't friends with everyone that went 17 there, no. 18 Q. Okay. But, but all the girls that went to 19 Epstein that you know, they all know you filed this 20 lawsuit, right? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. People down a' know you 23 filed the lawsuit, right? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Well, didn't they come to the 0334 file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725655  1 to interview you? 2 A. Yeah, they went -- well, then. yeah.. 3 knows. 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. So, so he knew because the cops came 10 and -- 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. -- had to tell him why they were there to 13 see you, right? 14 A. I don't know what the cops told him, so I 15 don't know what information he knew. 16 Q. Well, you eventually told him what was 17 going on, didn't you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You never told him? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You never told him you were in the 22 lawsuit? 23 A. Never. I don't -- no. 24 Q. Who else now have you told that you're in 25 the lawsuit? 0335 1 A. My mom and my dad, my sister, my current 2 boyfriend. 3 Q. Current boyfriend is who? 4 A. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. My ex-boyfriend and who else -- and 7 friends, Jane Doe No. 7, That's it. 8 Q. Who is your closet friend? 9 A. Jane Doe No. 7. 10 Q. Okay. So she knows? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Who's your second-closest friend? 13 A. My boyfriend. 14 Q. He knows? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Who's your third-closest friend? 17 A. I don't hang out -- I just have a click. 18 That's it. That's all. I already told you the 19 people that I -- 20 Q. Is there any -- doesn't everybody that's 21 close to you or you're close to know that you filed 22 the lawsuit? 23 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 25 0336 1 BY MR. LUTTIER: 2 Q. Well, who is it that you consider to be file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PMl EFTA00725656  3 very close to you that doesn't know you filed the 4 lawsuit? 5 A. My -- 6 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. Go 7 ahead. 8 THE WITNESS: My boyfriend and my family 9 and my best friend, which is Jane Doe No. 7. 10 BY MR. LUTTIER: 11 Q. I thought you said they all knew? 12 A. What do you mean? 13 Q. My question was who -- 14 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Be careful. 15 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 16 BY MR. LUTTIER: 17 Q. Who that you're close to does not know 18 that you filed this lawsuit, if anybody? 19 A. I don't know. 20 . I mean, the word spread out in 21 among the people that live there that these 22 lawsuits were filed and that you were involved, 23 correct? 24 A. Yeah. 25 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 0337 1 BY MR. LUTHER: 2 Q. If you went back to your old neighborhood, 3 pretty much everybody knows that you are in this 4 lawsuit, correct? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Pretty much everybody knows that these 7 other people, Jane Doe No. 7 and these other girls 8 are involved in this lawsuit, correct? 9 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't, I don't know if 11 they know, but if you are the -- I don't know 12 if they know. I don't know who knows, but I'm 13 sure if you go back in , they know 14 who used to hang out. And what was it, 15 whenever the co made statements, it's like 16 well, hmm, like 17 who, who in that hun out that was 18 acquaintances with ? Well, 19 it's kind of commonsense. 20 So I don't know who knows and who doesn't 21 know, but if I went back to my hometown, people 22 aren't idiots. 23 BY MR. LUTTIER: 24 Q. They would -- 25 A. They would put two and two, two and two 0338 1 together. 2 Q. They know that you filed a lawsuit and 3 you're involved in this? 4 A. I don't know if they're -- file:///q/Documents%20and%20Senings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 P141 EFTA00725657  5 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 6 Calls for speculation. Go ahead. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 BY MR. LUTTIER: 9 Q. So, who, who that you care about doesn't 10 know, if anybody, that you're in this lawsuit? 11 A. People that I care about know that I am. 12 Q. Okii.ow, you mentioned this current 13 boyfriend,. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What's his last name? 16 17 Q. And you are saying he's -- do 18 you know whether or not he's a drug dealer? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You don't know or you're saying he's not? 21 A. He's not. 22 Q. Okay. And you're sure of that? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. By the way, when's the last time you were 25 arrested? 0339 1 A. Last weekend. Or, no, not last weekend. 2 I don't know, like two weeks ago, maybe. 3 Q. You were arrested two weeks ago? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Who were you arrested by? 6 A. cops. 7 Q. What for? 8 A. Domestic violence. 9 Q. Well, if you were arrested, you must have 10 been the person that committed the act of domestic 11 violence. 12 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Well, you're assuming 13 she was guilty. 14 BY MR. LUTTIER: 15 Q. Someone thought you were -- 16 A. I can't -- 17 MR. MERMELSTEIN: It's a presumption of 18 innocence, right? 19 THE WITNESS: And I can't talk about it 20 either. All right? 21 BY MR. LUTTIER: 22 Q. Who told you you can't talk about it? 23 It's a matter of public record. 24 A. I don't know. I don't know. 25 Q. So, who told you couldn't talk about it? 0340 1 A. Nobody did. I'm just assuming that 2 myself. 3 Q. So, you were arrested -- 4 MR. MERMELSTEIN: He can ask you questions 5 about it. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh. file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725658  7 BY MR. LUTTIER: 8 Q. Tell me, this event happened on what day 9 of the week? 10 A. On a Friday. 11 Q. Friday night? 12 A. Yeah. 13 And, and can we assume that because the 14 lice were summoned, it happened someplace 15 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And what time did it happen? 18 A. Probably like around 1:00. 19 Q. A.m.? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. And where did it happen? 22 A. house. 23 Q. Which is where? 24 A. In 25 Q. Okay. I mean, do you have an address? 0341 1 A. 2 • Do you know anything more than= 3 ?tea big street. 4 A. 5 Q. Do you live with him? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Were you staying there? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you stay there with any degree of 10 regularity? 11 A. What do you mean, regularity? 12 Q. On any kind of regular basis, like, I go 13 up there for the weekends, or -- 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Is that where ou o on the weekends when 16 you're not down a 9 17 A. Why would I be at 18 Q. Well, I don't know if you were still 19 there. Are you still a student there? 20 A. No, I graduated. 21 Q. kay. When did you graduate? 22 A. 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. What did you get a degree in? 0342 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And -- 7 MR. MERMELSTEIN: 8 BY MR. LUTTIER: 11 le:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725659  9 Q. Wait. Okay. 10 We'll settle for that. Bachelor's Degree in 11 right? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. How did you do? Did you do well? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Do you know what your GPA was? 16 A. Like a 17 Q. And do you have plans to go further with 18 your education? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What are your plans? 21 A. To get my Master's. 22 Q. Master's? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you applied? 25 A. Yes. 0343 1 Q. Where? 2 A. 3 Q. Been accepted? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When will you start? 6 A. I am not going to go to -- or I 7 was -- maybe spring. 8 ..ring. By the way, you went to 9 undergrad on a scholarship? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Who paid for this? Who sponsored you? I2 Who ave ou the scholarship? 13 A. 14 Q. Okay. Are you going to be scholarshipped 15 for your Master's? 16 A. No. I signed up for my graduate 17 assistance program. 18 Q. So, you plan to teach while you're taking 19 your Master's? 20 A. No it's where you work for 21 and they pay for your Master's. 22 Q. Okay. And do you have plans after you get 23 your Master's? 24 A. Yeah, to work. 25 Q. Okay. And you've got some plan -- 0344 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. -- kind of a general plan of what you want 3 to do in life? 4 A. Yeah, eah I want to be a 5 Q. Oka 6 A. 7 8 Q. Okay. Let's go back to this domestic 9 violence thing. Had you and your boyfriend been 10 someplace on this Friday night when this happened? file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 P141 EFTA00725660  11 A. At home. 12 Q. And were you anyplace earlier that night? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Where were you? 15 A. 16 Q. Where? 17 A. 18 Q. is that the name of a bar or 19 something? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Where? 22 A. 23 Q. Had you been an lace else? 24 A. Yeah we went to for dinner. 25 Q. where is that? 0345 1 A. In 2 Q. Anyplace else? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Had you been out looking for anybody that 5 night? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Had you been down south to 8 that night? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Had you been down south to 11 at any time in the week prior to that? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. So tell me what happened. What was 14 the -- what, what occurred at this incident that 15 occurs at 1:00 at= house? 16 A. It was just, it was over something silly. 17 I don't -- it was -- just got in an argument about 18 being out in the beginning of the night. 19 Q. What do you mean? 20 A. Nothing. It was just, like, like, real -- 21 being in a relationship you fight over stupid 22 things, and whenever he was -- I don't know, 23 whenever you have alcohol in your system, you know, 24 it brings up, like, silly little fights become big 25 dramatic. 0346 1 Q. What was the fi ht about? 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. So, did this argument turn physical? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. What ha ened? 11 A. 12 file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 P141 EFTA00725661  13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Before you go on, let me 0347 1 know. You said, I'm sorry, I just realized I 2 should ask you, somebody told you not to talk 3 about what happened? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 5 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Was it a lawyer? 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 MR. MERMELSTEIN: All right. I -- I'm 8 going to plead the Fifth then. If she's 9 already gotten advice by a lawyer, I'm going to 10 plead the Fifth. 11 MR. LUTTIER: Well, she has to -- she's 12 going to -- 13 THE WITNESS: I'm going to have to plead 14 the Fifth. I have a lawyer and I'm not 15 supposed to talk about it. 16 BY MR. LUTTIER: 17 Q. Are you charged with criminal -- a crime? 18 A. Yeah, well, the State's picking up -- he's 19 not charging -- press, he's not press -- charging 20 these things, but I'm sure this automatically in 21 domestic violence in the State of Florida, they 22 automatically -- it doesn't get dropped, the State 23 automatically picks it up. 24 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Is it civil or is it 25 criminal? 0348 1 THE WITNESS: Civil, I think. I don't 2 know. 3 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Well, I'm going to -- 4 I'm going to -- 5 BY MR. LUTTIER: 6 Q. The State attorney -- has the State 7 attorney advised you whether they're going to charge 8 you or not? 9 A. Not -- no, I think -- well, I don't know. 10 They said that he's not charging me. I have a 11 lawyer. Am I allowed to talk about it? I don't 12 know. 13 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Well, he's not -- if 14 your lawyer -- if you could talk about it, you 11 le:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725662  15 should have your lawyer, yeah. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I have a lawyer. 17 BY MR. LUTTIER: 18 Q. Who is our lawyer? 19 A. (phonetic). 20 Q. Okay. When you say he's not charging me, 21 he didn't go get an injunction against -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- domestic violence against you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. While we're speaking about injunctions 0349 1 against domestic violence, let me get you something. 2 A. I mean, what is that? I don't know. 3 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Let him follow up and 4 ask a question. 5 MR. LUTTIER: Is this Exhibit 3? 6 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. 7 MR. LUTTIER: Let me just -- 8 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 BY MR. LUTTIER: 11 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as 12 Exhibit 3 which purports to be a Petition for 13 Injunction for a Protection Against Dating Violence. 14 And referring to the first page, it says, I, full 15 name, Jane Doe No. 4, do you see the first page? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. All right. Is this, is this handwriting 18 on here yours? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Let's go to the second page. Is this your 21 handwriting? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Third page your handwriting? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Fourth page? 0350 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Fifth page? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. So did you complete this whole 5 form? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. And was it true and correct when you 8 completed it? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Those were the representations you were 11 making to The Court, right? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. And then you had a hearing? You went to 14 court? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. And was there at court, 9 file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725663  17 A. I don't remember. 18 Q. And you got an order that for a year, that 19 was an injunction against domestic violence against 20 him, correct? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. So he couldn't come around you for a year; 23 isn't that right? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at Page 2, 0351 1 Section 1. It says down here in section, section 2 Roman Numeral III, No. 1, where it sayscSibe 3 the nature of your relationship. It says, 4 relationship began. That was riting 5 to the court that our relationshi with 6 began correct? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And then you wrote, 9 relationship became intimate. That is ou were 10 writing to the court that on your 11 relationship with became intimate, 12 right? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. That's a specific date, 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Well, what did you mean when you say, 17 relationship became intimate? 18 A. I don't know. Kissing, I'm going to say. 19 I mean, kissing, holding hands, like, cuddling. I 20 don't know. 21 Q. Well, what you meant when you wrote this 22 was you were having sexual relations with him -- 23 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form, 24 argumentative. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 0352 1 BY MR. LUTTIER: 2 Q. Is that true or false? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. So as of you had 5 sexual relations with correct? 6 A. No. I don't remember. No. 7 Q. Well, why did you write on here intimate? 8 A. Intimate -- 9 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, asked and 10 answered. 11 THE WITNESS: Intimate, I mean, intimate 12 can mean anything, like holding hands. When 13 I'm intimate with somebody that means, I mean, 14 anybody. I mean, it's not like, it's not sex. 15 I don't see where it says, oh, I became -- had 16 started having sex with him. At that time I 17 was 15, so intimate meant making out in the 18 movies. file:///CyDocuments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.%2Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM! EFTA00725664  19 BY MR. LUTTIER: 20 Q. Now, do you recall previously you 21 testified that about four or five months after you 22 first dated you began having sexual 23 relations with him? 24 A. What? Repeat that. 25 Q. Do you remember earlier you testified that 0353 1 about four or five months after you began dating 2 you had sexual relations with him? 3 A. Yeah, about four or five months. 4 Q. So that would be about the same as this 5 time period here from wouldn't 6 it? 7 A. Yeah, but, I mean, intimate, like, to me, 8 when I was that young, intimate, like, meant like 9 going to the movies and making out with your 10 boyfriend in the movie theater. Intimate to me back 11 then wasn't sexual intercourse. 12 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure we're 13 clear. I want you to tell the ladies and gentlemen 14 of the jury in that camera that when you filled this 15 form out that's been marked as Exhibit 3, and you 16 wrote , relationship became intimate, 17 that you didn't mean sexual intercourse. Is that 18 right? 19 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. LUTTIER: 21 Q. Tell the ladies and the gentlemen of the 22 jury that's not what you meant. 23 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to the form 24 again. Go ahead. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's not what I 0354 1 meant. 2 BY MR. LUTTIER: 3 Q. Not what you meant. Now, when we ask your 4 mom what you meant, what's she going to say? 5 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 6 That's speculative. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 BY MR. LUTTIER: 9 10 11 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Speculative. Objection. 12 MR. LUTTIER: Can we agree -- 13 THE WITNESS: Is that a question? 14 BY MR. LUTHER: 15 Q. 16 MR. MERMELSTEIN: I think it was. 17 BY MR. LUTHER: 18 1 20 A. That what? file:///q/Documents%20and%20Senings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PMl EFTA00725665  21 22 23 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, 24 argumentative. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 0355 1 BY MR. LUTTIER: 2 • All right. So tell me, if 3 wasn't when you started having sexual 4 relationships with him, or sexual relations, when 5 did you start having a sexual relationship with him? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 7 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection, asked and 8 answered. 9 BY MR. LUTTIER: 10 Q. When was the first time you gave him oral 11 sex? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. When was the first time he stuck his penis 14 in you and ejaculated? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Was it a significant event -- 17 A. Was that even a question? 18 Q. Yeah. 19 A. What did you say? 20 Q. When -- 21 A. Can you repeat that question? 22 Q. When did he stick his penis in you and 23 ejaculate -- 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. -- in any orifice? 0356 1 A. I don't remember. 2 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection. 3 BY MR. LUTTIER: 4 5 6 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. LUTTIER: 8 Q. Can we agree with that? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. So, you still want to stand on your answer 11 to the jury that when you said, became intimate, you 12 weren't referring to sexual intercourse? 13 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15 BY MR. LUTTIER: 16 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to Paragraph 6, the 17 next page. Can you read out loud what ou told the 18 court occurred on at. 19 . First it says, respondent, that 20 means right? 21 A. Hold on. I'm not following what page 22 you're on. file:///q/Doctiments%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.%2Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725666  23 Q. Paragraph 6, Page 3. This is in your 24 handwriting, right? 25 A. (No verbal response.) 0357 1 Q. Correct? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 . All ri ht. It says, respondent; that's 4 right? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Now, read to the ladies and entlemen of 7 the you wrote occurred on 8 with Mr. 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. And then did you continue it onto the next 25 page? 0358 1 A. We were -- 2 Q. No, onto the next page. Turn onto what's 3 called a continuation. What else did you write? 4 A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. He humiliated you o 16 didn't he? 17 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: Humiliated me in front of -- 19 BY MR. LUTTIER: 20 Q. He humiliated you, didn't he? 21 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form again. 22 THE WITNESS: For what? Is that your -- 23 BY MR. LUTTIER: 24 Q. Do you know -- file:///q/Documents%20and%20Seitings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.1620Jane%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 P141 EFTA00725667  25 A. Is that your opinion? 0359 1 Q. Do you know what humiliation is? 2 A. Is that your -- 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yeah, I do, but in, in front of who? 5 Q What -- 6 A Like humiliation is humiliating in front 7 of a crowd of people. 8 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Don't argue with him. 9 Just, just answer. 10 BY MR. LUTTIER: 11 Q. Just humiliate. To yourself, what's 12 humiliate mean to you? 13 A. Yeah, embarrassing. 14 Q. Is that all it means? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. I mean, he treated you worse than an 17 animal, didn't he? 18 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form, 19 argumentative. 20 THE WITNESS: An animal? 21 BY MR. LUTTIER: 22 Q. Would you treat a dog like this? 23 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 0360 1 BY MR. LUTTIER: 2 Q. No human being ought to be treated like 3 this, should they? 4 A. No. 5 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. LUTTIER: 7 Q. So, were you humiliated by his -- 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- conduct toward you? Did it make you 10 feel bad? 11 A. Of course. 12 Q. Did it make you feel low? 13 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15 BY MR. LUTTIER: 16 Q. Did it make you feel like you were 17 worthless? 18 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 20 BY MR. LUTTIER: 21 Q. Did it make you feel so bad that you went 22 and got a court order that said he couldn't come 23 near you for a year? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Jeffrey Epstein never made you feel like 0361 file:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PMl EFTA00725668  1 that, did he? 2 A. No, but just a lot worse. 3 Q. He was nice to you, wasn't he? 4 A. Yeah, really nice. 5 Q. And by the way, did you -- did you ever 6 touch Mr. Epstein's penis? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You had seen a man's penis before you went 9 to Jeffrey Epstein the first time, hadn't you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Matter of fact, had you touched a man's 12 penis before you went to Jeffrey Epstein? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. Had you placed a man's penis in your mouth 15 before you had gone to see Jeffrey Epstein? 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. Had you placed a man's penis in your 18 vagina before you went to Jeffrey Epstein? 19 A. I don't remember. 20 . When you made the videotape of you and 21 having sexual relations, what acts were 22 recorded on the videotape? 23 A. On the tape? 24 Q. Yeah. The tape -- 25 A. Sex. 0362 1 Q. -- you made. And you made that tape, 2 right? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 I. 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. And how old were you at the time? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Sixteen? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. Seventeen? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. No more than 17, right? 0363 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. But you remember whether you were older file:///q/Documents%20and%20Seitings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.%2Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725669  3 than 17, don't you? 4 A. No. I don't remember. 5 6 7 A. I don't remember. 8 Q. 9 A. I 10 don't remember when, and when, I am -- like you 11 already stated, I have been -- 12 Q. Okay. Did you -- 13 MR. MERMELSTEIN: You're okay. You're 14 doing fine. 15 BY MR. LUTHER: 16 17 18 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 20 BY MR. LUTHER: 21 22 23 24 25 0364 1 2 3 A. Yes. 4 5 6 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. LUTHER: 8 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen, look in the 9 camera and tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 10 you don't know if you were in high school when you 11 made this tape. 12 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form, 13 argumentative. 14 THE WITNESS: I was in high school when I 15 made this with 16 BY MR. LUTHER: 17 Q. Okay. All right. Way too young to be 18 doing this kind of stuff, right? 19 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection to form, 20 argumentative. 21 BY MR. LUTTIER: 22 Q. Right? Do you agree with me? 23 A. Yeah. 24 MR. MERMELSTEIN: Objection. 25 0365 1 BY MR. LUTHER: 2 . All ri ht. 3 4 A. 11 le:///q/Documents%20and%20Settings/Production/Desktop/Doe%20No.%204.162Ohne%20-%20Vol.%20Ill.txtl11/6/2009 5:12:34 PM1 EFTA00725670  5 Q. 6 A. Yeah 7 Q. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 MR. MERMELSTEIN: You know, I'm going to 19 object to that, again Rule 412, and ask you not 20 to -- It's just going too far. 21 MR. LUTTIER: Well, this is a videotape 22 that she admitted she